Stojko opposes the ladies result

[dgel]

Elvis as usual misses the point. The 3 axel gets significantly more points than the 3-lutz, and the differential is about right. The rule change that needs to be made to reward skaters for trying it in the short programme is the requirement to include a 2-axel. If it matched the men's - which allows double or triple axel - then Mao could do 3-axel, a 3-3 combo or 3-2 combo, plus a triple out of footwork. This would allow her to fully benefit from the additional points (2 axel- 3.5 points,; 3 axel 8.2 points; rest of programme can match other skaters for jumps). I don't think anyone could argue that this should not be changed.

[blue_idealist]

Yes, the rule is outdated and implies that ladies are never capable of doing triple axels. It holds those ladies back who can.

[Phoenix347]

Not only was the base value of the ENTIRE combination higher, but the quality of the combination was much better. Mao was creeping across the ice going into the 3A so slowly it was VERY noticeable on NBC and I thought for sure she was going to UR it (GOE bullet - speed/flow going in) and the landing of the 2T was at a dead stop (GOE bullet - out flow). It also went up and down and didn't cover a ton of ice (ice coverage - GOE bullet), didn't have difficult transitions in/out (GOE bullet + TR mark). It was telegraphed for a good 10 or so seconds before taking off (telegraphed jump - negative GOE bullet).

Also, compare speed and flow throughout the entire program. A big portion of the PCS difference is in the 4 PCS corridor marks (SS, IN, PE, CH) because of the skating skills mark. Didn't Kim get ~ 1/2 point higher on SS alone? From what I could tell from NBC's coverage, it was well deserved as there's a definite difference.

Degree of difficulty which seems to be a major argument here is covered in the base value of the element (3A > 3Lz). There's been a great deal of discussion and debate about multipliers for combinations, etc but so far no action to increase combo base values based on their difficulty has been accepted during ISU congresses.

Thank you for your excellent detailed explanation of how GOE is awarded for jumps. There are clearly defined guidelines for how GOE for jumps are awarded and you explain it very clearly here

[CdnSkateWatcher]

http://www.usfsa.org/Content/2009-10...20Aspects).pdf

Here's a good summary (to me) of the GOE rules, and I believe it's reasonably current (2009/10 season). FYI - my daughter has recently completed a judging clinic, and thus I've been subsumed with information on the evolving issues and skill needed to truly differentiate GOE. That's why they try to pull from very senior judges for these competiitons, in the hopes of getting real expertise. Sure, there have been scandals and horror stories, but, given the number of officials involved in skating, I'd like to acknowledge the efforts they make to contribute to the sport and to do the job well. If you want to be a judge ... and you have the required skating background ... it's an avenue for people who truly love skating and who want to contribute, and it may put you in a position, eventually, to have input into rule changes and implementation. Takes a lot of time and effort however.

[CdnSkateWatcher]

And for quick reference, the jump bullets:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

For +1, you need to get 2 bullets; for +2 4 bullets; for +3, 6 or more bullets.

[edge31]

It's funny to read the comments on the GOEs and why so and so deserved this and the other didn't.....
it's the same with the judges as some gave big GOEs and some gave 0 to the same skater for the same element.
To me, that is the real problem... the judges are not consistent in what constitutes the good in "good speed", "good height", etc. What does that mean? Do we now have to take a speed reading so it can be verified? Measure the time in the air with the dartfish technology??
There is so much room to play with the GOE it's almost more ridiculous than the PCS.

To me, Mao and Kim did great, with Kim just edging out Mao probably by 3 points max. As far as the speed and flow are concerned with the entry to a triple axel, well the forward takeoff kind of tends to put a damper on entry speed. Most skaters skate a little slower when entering the axel takeoff for both triple and double axels (when compared to a backward entry jump). To me it's relative - for a triple axel, she had good speed - not excellent but good.

[hongligl]

I do think that Yu-Na's 3/3 and Mao's 3A/2t deserve about the same + GOE. But Yu-Na got +2, Mao meerly 0.6. I agree with the placement but not the gaps.

[ehdtkqorl123]

I do think that Yu-Na's 3/3 and Mao's 3A/2t deserve about the same + GOE. But Yu-Na got +2, Mao meerly 0.6. I agree with the placement but not the gaps.

But It's the quality that determines the gaps. Personally, I agree with the "narrower" gap with Yu-Na above Mao if Mao had Midori's 3A quality, height and some more speed lol.
If Mao can do 3A like Kulik does, then I wouldn't argue with Mao being ahead of Yu-Na.

[seniorita]

I have some other ideas, but they don't belong in this thread...

Do you have any idea what I shall cook tonight?

Cause this thread is Yuna vs Mao more than Elvis vs everyone

[Fan123]

But It's the quality that determines the gaps. Personally, I agree with the "narrower" gap with Yu-Na above Mao if Mao had Midori's 3A quality, height and some more speed lol.
If Mao can do 3A like Kulik does, then I wouldn't argue with Mao being ahead of Yu-Na.

That is why I think the base value of the 3a/2t should be higher than 3lz/3t, and despite the amazing quality of the 3lz/3t, the GOE points should not have been enough to garner more total points than the 3a/2t.

[Phoenix347]

Do you have any idea what I shall cook tonight?

Cause this thread is Yuna vs Mao more than Elvis vs everyone

Yuna stew with Kung Mao chicken?

[newvie]

If 3A base value was very high, Yuna would've tried hard to get it.
I don't think it's completely impossible that Yuna makes 3A if she doesn't insist too much on the "textbook" way.

I just find it interesting that people suddenly complain that 3A base value is too low now.
I would rather say Mao did not make a smart move to rely too much on 3A knowing that it doesn't have high value as they say.
And we know why she does only 3As when she could collect a lot of points with "easy" 3-3s as Yuna.

By the way, i was very happy to see Mao's strong comeback with beautiful 3A combo.
Now I can watch Yuna's program for great 3L-3T and that of Mao for great 3A-2T.

[rallycairn]

For people who missed it, let me reiterate what antmanb said:

A triple axel is already worth more than a triple lutz. Durrr, anybody can look that up and find that out. And nobody disagrees with that. Mao earned more points on the triple axel than Kim on the triple lutz. What gave Kim more points on the combo is the triple toe. See, a triple toe is worth more than a double toe, because durrrr, the double toe is a pretty damn basic jump. What Elvis, who's been bonked in the head one too many times in his karate matches, really means is: he wants the double toe to be worth more.

This is what people don't get about the COP. They want to hang it all on one jump or one move. The COP changes the scoring in skating to a cumulative and additive system, in which all your elements count. You can't just do one difficult element and expect a huge total score, you have to do make sure all your elements are difficult and do them all well to get a huge total score. It's a very rational way of measuring technical achievement in figure skating. It doesn't let the wow factor of one move obsolete the rest of the score.

Good point, I am certainly not inclined to argue that if the triple axel's value were raised it would be by enough to make that one move give a skater the ability to make "obsolete the rest of the score."

[ehdtkqorl123]

I just find it interesting that people suddenly complain that 3A base value is too low now.

"Some" people feel sour lol. The two have been in senior for years, and it's funny that these complaints come out at this big time, not when they were competing with 3-3 and 3A long time ago.

[Fan123]

"Some" people feel sour lol. The two have been in senior for years, and it's funny that these complaints come out at this big time, not when they were competing with 3-3 and 3A long time ago.

I haven't been following skating much until now, and have just discovered the base values on these difficult jump combos. Kudos to Team Kim to have used the point system wisely to their advantage. I think Kim deserves all the GOEs in the short program. Regarding the jumb combos alone, I think more points should be given to combos with the harder primary jumps than the secondary jumps. For example and to respond to DesertRoad's point, 3A/2t should be worth more than 3Lz/3t or 3f/3t because the primary 3A is harder than the primary 3Lz and 3f. To newvie's point, I don't think Kim would have pursued the 3A if it has a higher BV. Did she even try to use it in any of her programs pre-2006 or after?