Stojko opposes the ladies result

[Iscariot]

Shizuka Arakawa did a 3LZ-3T at 1998 olympics SP.

I totally forgot about that one, i saw it a few months ago and it was beatiful, i think it was the hardest combination a lady did that day

[Johnnnn]

I like Yuna just as much as the next person. But, your constant negativity towards Mao is getting annoying. You repeat the same thing post after post, just using different words.

Tell me one thing in my post that is not true. Did I make stuff up just to screw Mao? From your posts it seems like you don't want anybody to know the flaws of Mao which I understand if you are a big fan of her but this is not Mao Asada Fan Forum and I am free to express my opinion.

[magicalwords]

I have no problems w/ slight increase of base value for 3A, but then it already HAS been raised from 7.x (I think it was 7.8) to 8.5 about two seasons ago. However, I also have no problems with the point gap btwn Mao and Yu-Na after the short program. Kim had better qualities in jumps (which count for a lot) and she was faster (just general skating, flow in & out of jumps, spins, spirals, step seq.) overall, and her spin positions weren't that different from Mao's (except for Biellman - Mao better; and sit spins - Yu-Na better - actually has "better looking" position than Mao, because when Mao does sit spin it looks like she's sitting down and it ticks me off every time I see that) and she had more choreography and fire in that program. so that's that.

As for Stojko, I don't even think he cares about ladies comp. at all. I think he's just pissed about quad not beating no-quad, and trying to bring this whole argument into ladies just to get his point across. Which is just nasty.

[dlgpffps]

For me, it's not even the value of the 3A that's the issue...it's the PCS. I don't understand how Yuna gets 8s and 9s in PCS and Mao and other skaters can't break past 7s. I don't think Yuna deserves lower PCS, I just think Mao and some of the other skaters deserve higher PCS.

Mao got an equal number of 8s. Both skaters got in the 7 range for transitions, but for the four other categories, they got scores in the 8-band. The only difference is within that band. There was about a 1 point difference separating Yu-na from Mao. PCS-wise, the difference wasn't as great as your post would suggest.

Also, Yu-na did not get a 9. She got six nines in her protocal, but in the end she emerged with none. Also, in calculating PCS for each category, the highest and lowest scores are omitted and the rest are divided for an average. Mao also got four 9s and the highest single score, a 9.50 for performance. The averages were in the 8s though. The shocking thing, for me at least, is that Joannie had no 9s.

I'll break it down for you:

Yu-na/ Mao
Skating skills: 8.60 / 8.25
Transitions: 7.90 / 7.40
Performance: 8.60 / 8.40
Choreography: 8.40 / 8.10
Interpretation: 8.75 / 8.20
PCS in total: 33.80 / 32.28

The 5-point difference between Mao and Yu-na really comes down to GOE. I know the 3A is impressive (if you look at my past posts, I wholeheartedly agree that it should be given a greater bv), but in line with CoP, Mao does not meet the GOE-garnering qualifications. By that, I'm referring to Ito-style jumping in terms of height and distance and Buttle-style jumping in terms of beautiful transitions. I'll try to find the listed qualities (the checkpoints)... I had it somewhere.

Hope this helped


Edit: OK I found it!
For 2/8, a skater gets +1 GOE
+2 GOE for 4 bullets
+3 GOE for 6 or more bullets

1) Unexpected/ creative/ difficult entry
2) Clear recognizable steps/ free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) Varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height AND distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow FROM entry TO exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the music structure

I think #2 doesn't count for the required element in the SP. I'm not sure.

[chloepoco]

Yes, you're free to express your opinion. It's just that you keep expressing the same opinion over and over and over. But whatever.

Good luck to ALL the ladies tomorrow--you are ALL beautiful and talented!

[bems]

Stojko is a bitter little man. He has contributed little since his departure and should be ignored.

If he had written with more fact and less malice I might listen but for now he needs to come on side as a Canadian with less bias. He failed at Salt Lake and has not recovered.

[Artistry]

Well, Johnn, since you ask, one thing in your post ( x 2000 other posts) "that is not true" is that you think that Mao doesn't have good choreography. That's your opinion and not a fact - not "truth", although every time you write you seem to imply yours are words of some kind of undebatable TRUTH. I understand that you can express your opinions and this is not the Mao Asada Fan Forum, but this is also not a Let's hear Johnnnn Bag on Mao forum. Can you at least minimize the amount of completely repetitive comments that you make, like others have suggested? Or is there an 'ignore' button that I haven't learned about on this forum?

Also, YOU may think Rachmaninoff in this arrangement is creepy. I actually think it's strangely alluring and hypnotic, and that there's nothing wrong with music that doesn't sound happy. If one looks at Olympic GM programs of the past, quite a lot are composed in minor and if skated flawlessly would get 5.9 and 6.0.

[bmelanie]

Could it be that Mao was really insistent on doing the triple axel? This jump is her signature move. I'm a little frustrated that her focus on it comes at the expense of the rest of her program, but I rather admire her strong will to keep it, in a 'full speed ahead, d*mn the torpedoes' kind of way. As for the location of training, if Tarasova currently has a lot of Russian students, it would make sense that she would rather stay in Russia. And IIRC, she is also responsible for taking care of a family relative (not sure if it's mom or sis). Couldn't Mao have moved to Russia instead? It would have been really hard for her (different place, language, culture), but being such a strong person that she is, I think she would have adapted splendidly. Moving the training base is what Virtue and Moir did. Yu-Na had to. I'm sure there are other skaters also who have made this sacrifice. Concerning money, Mao would have had it easier than some skaters, because she had won competitions, skated in ice shows, and has endorsements/sponsors. Perhaps she didn't want to leave her family and her education..?

Less than 24 hours to the free skate. I am sure that Mao will do her best. If she will be happy with her performance, then that is all I can ask for.

I have heard that it was at Mao's insistence that she put 2 3As in the LP - but it's hearsay, I can't speak for her. I did read that the music selection was Mao's; Tarasova gave her a couple of options for each program and Mao chose Masquerade and Bells - so we can't really blame TAT for that. As for training grounds, Mao wanted to train at Chukyo University where they provided her with a private rink for training, and of course any skater would want to stay in a familiar environment. eg. Yuna may train in Canada but she lives within the sizeable Korean community in Toronto.
Mao may not seem like it, but simply looking at the decisions she has made over the past few seasons - leaving Arutunian right before Worlds, putting 2 3As in her LP, refusing to change any content in her programs, recycling the Masquerade - I feel she's got a pretty stubborn streak. She sticks with a decision, for better or for worse, and I do respect her for that, even if I find it frustrating. There's a fine line between persistence and butthead stubborn, however, and I think she's been toeing it.

[Darcy518]

I totally forgot about that one, i saw it a few months ago and it was beatiful, i think it was the hardest combination a lady did that day

The 2nd hardest combo in Ladies SP at Nagano was perhaps 3T-3T, done by Surya Bonaly.

And I just remember that Kimmie also did 3LZ-3T at Torino 2006. Impressive!

[newvie]

To newvie's point, I don't think Kim would have pursued the 3A if it has a higher BV. Did she even try to use it in any of her programs pre-2006 or after?

She did pursue to have it. That's how she met Orser. She went to him to learn 3A at first.
I even watched a video clip that showed her practicing it. She faltered at the end but she almost made it.
I heard that it was Orser who recommended her to give up on 3A.
I guess it's because she was already struggling with injuries and it seemed too risky to learn a new jump for her body.
But I still think she would've made it if she didn't have other choices but to make it.

I think the competition between Mao and Yuna have pushed and helped each other and the skating world.
The ladies' filed would have become much less interesting without them.

[bethissoawesome]

I have heard that it was at Mao's insistence that she put 2 3As in the LP - but it's hearsay, I can't speak for her. I did read that the music selection was Mao's; Tarasova gave her a couple of options for each program and Mao chose Masquerade and Bells - so we can't really blame TAT for that. As for training grounds, Mao wanted to train at Chukyo University where they provided her with a private rink for training, and of course any skater would want to stay in a familiar environment. eg. Yuna may train in Canada but she lives within the sizeable Korean community in Toronto.
Mao may not seem like it, but simply looking at the decisions she has made over the past few seasons - leaving Arutunian right before Worlds, putting 2 3As in her LP, refusing to change any content in her programs, recycling the Masquerade - I feel she's got a pretty stubborn streak. She sticks with a decision, for better or for worse, and I do respect her for that, even if I find it frustrating. There's a fine line between persistence and butthead stubborn, however, and I think she's been toeing it.

It was Mao who decided to go for the two 3A's... "Team Mao" wanted to take the 3A out of her programs once she became inconsistent with them, Mao refused. Even the idea of losing the 3A has made her cry in interviews... it's something very important to her in skating... she knows the rules and the risks, so at the end of the day, it should be her choice whether or not to do it.

As for the 3A... I think the only way to truly rectify the problem is for the ISU to say "The 3A presents a higher degree of difficulty for ladies than it does for men. Very few ladies have ever completed it competition, while to be among the top in Mens, you have to have a 3A, and if you don't, then you need a quad." Amd by that reasoning, raise the base value of the 3A for ladies, leave it the same for men. I think the 8.2 is fine for Mens Skating, but a 9.0 - 9.5 is more realistic for Ladies.

[Ren]

She did pursue to have it. That's how she met Orser. She went to him to learn 3A at first.
I even watched a video clip that showed her practicing it. She faltered at the end but she almost made it.
I heard that it was Orser who recommended her to give up on 3A.
I guess it's because she was already struggling with injuries and it seemed too risky to learn a new jump for her body.
But I still think she would've made it if she didn't have other choices but to make it.

It makes complete sense that she would go to Mr.Triple Axel for this. I suppose before he became her coach certain people have been asking why, if she was a jumping phenom, couldn't she land 3As like Mao? I am glad she listened to Brian and trained more wisely (i.e. focusing on her strengths). I am happy that he and David Wilson have helped Yu-Na find happiness in skating again.

[usethis]

Edit: OK I found it!
For 2/8, a skater gets +1 GOE
+2 GOE for 4 bullets
+3 GOE for 6 or more bullets

1) Unexpected/ creative/ difficult entry
2) Clear recognizable steps/ free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) Varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height AND distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good frow FROM entry TO exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the music structure

Thank you! I didn't know how GOEs were awarded before. Now that I've learned of it;

1) Applies to neither (Ms. Kim or Ms. Asada)
2) Applies to both
3) Applies to neither (?) --> Honestly I have no idea what this one means
4) Advantage Ms. Kim
5) Applies to neither or both
6) Advantage Ms. Kim
7) Advantage Ms. Kim
8) Applies to both

It makes sense now why Ms. Kim racks up more GOEs (especially +2 on 3Lz/3T) from her jumps.

[Mafke]

It was Mao who decided to go for the two 3A's... "Team Mao" wanted to take the 3A out of her programs once she became inconsistent with them, Mao refused. Even the idea of losing the 3A has made her cry in interviews... it's something very important to her in skating... she knows the rules and the risks, so at the end of the day, it should be her choice whether or not to do it.

She's always needed the 3ax because most of the time she doesn't have enough other triples that she can count on. I recall that at various times her toeloop, salchow, lutz and loop have all been problematic for different reasons. that's a _lot_ of nemesis jumps even if they usually aren't problems at the same time.

[dlgpffps]

Thank you! I didn't know how GOEs were awarded before. Now that I've learned of it
3) Applies to neither (?) --> Honestly I have no idea what this one means

You're welcome

An example of the "varied position in the air" is the tano jump, during which one arm's extended overhead instead of folded at the chest. Brian Boitano's famous for this. Yu-na also does it in her LP. Mao did it in her LP last year (for her 3-2-2 combo). I have to check to see if she's still doing it. A delayed jump is one that takes place with minimum prerotation, i.e. the rotations are delayed until the skater gets into the air. This usually requires great height and speed. A good example would be Ilia Kulik's gorgeous 3A or the delayed single axels of yore.

Hope that helps