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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't want to be rude, but you should re-read Fan123's post more carefully.
    "I'm trying to find the words to describe this girl without being disrespectful"?

  2. #377
    mylastduchess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan123 View Post
    Ah, that's good to know, and thanks for clarifying my misinformed argument. Assuming that Asada may not have garnered high GOE compared to Kim, what would you have given Asada in PCS and Kim respectively?
    well in the short where they both skated as well as they could there was I think around 1.6 point difference in PCS, which probably would have been the same point difference the long if both skated cleanly. It takes a lot of small reasons why Yu-na pulled ahead but Kim basically had 6 triples, and 3 2A, while Mao only had 6 triples, and 1 2A... so Yu-na already had a 2 jump advantage than Mao because Mao didn't try a 3/3 or 3/3 Seq... which I'm sure she could have pulled a 3/3 Seq but for some reason it was overlooked

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by mylastduchess View Post
    Its a rough estimate but she got a downgrade on her Flip which is around (3+ point difference ) points and single her Toe (4.40). so 7.40 points she lost plus lets say 1.5-2.00 + GOE on those jumps, 2-3 points increase in her PCS, I'm guesstimating her marks will be around 142 - 143.5 ish
    Ah, I see...but why so low in the PCS scores compared to Kim? I read in a different thread that the PCS can be subjective? So even if Asada didn't get DG on her 3F and singled her toe, etc...would she still have enough in PCS to even come close to Kim?

  4. #379
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mylastduchess View Post
    Its a rough estimate but she got a downgrade on her Flip which is around (3+ point difference ) points and single her Toe (4.40). so 7.40 points she lost plus lets say 1.5-2.00 + GOE on those jumps, 2-3 points increase in her PCS, I'm guesstimating her marks will be around 142 - 143.5 ish
    So basically, if Mao's going to be competitive, she needs the lutz and a 3-3? I wonder if CoP will allow her to land 3-3's to the point where she can put them into competition comfortably?

    If not, she's cooked meat given that Mirai's coming up, and I'm sure she'll start landing 3-3's comfortably quite soon.

    Given that the next Olympics is in Sochi, I really, really hope she stays with Tat. I think this might be her only chance.

  5. #380
    mylastduchess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan123 View Post
    Ah, I see...but why so low in the PCS scores compared to Kim? I read in a different thread that the PCS can be subjective? So even if Asada didn't get DG on her 3F and singled her toe, etc...would she still have enough in PCS to even come close to Kim?
    short answer for the PCS difference.... Mao had bad choreo... there was not a lot of transitions and the music was just too heavy for such a light skater like Mao, If she had a stronger program like she did in 2008 and more speed I think the PCS difference would have been miniscule.

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by mylastduchess View Post
    short answer for the PCS difference.... Mao had bad choreo... there was not a lot of transitions and the music was just too heavy for such a light skater like Mao, If she had a stronger program like she did in 2008 and more speed I think the PCS difference would have been miniscule.
    Thanks for all your help and time.

  7. #382
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan123 View Post
    Oh...sorry, you misread my post...I said, "but had she..." In my eyes, I think Kim's peformance was pure perfection.
    Sorry for misreading. There's just so many posts it just all blended in my head.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    What if they can't do triple axel out of footwork? What if they can't do 3-3? the 2A/3A option would let them do the 3A like 2A.
    It gives them more options than the options you listed, thus put them at a disadvantage.
    I guess we are in disagreement about what "disadvantage" means. The triple Axel ladies are not at a disadvantage compared to other skaters. So I guess the point is that they do not have as big an advantage as they would have if the rule were changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah
    Someone else must have suggested this.
    Yes, it was Flattfan that I was responding to in the second half of my post.

    I did, however, say that 2a-2t-2l should not be allowed in a long program. Basically, what I'm saying is that the third double-axel (and additional double jumps that are attached to it) should not be allowed.
    I think the ISU sort of leans in that direction, too. Last year they passed a new rule restricting the number of double Axels allowed in a program to three. (There is no limit on other double jumps -- you can do seven double toes as your seven jumping passes if you want to, as far as I know. This is to accomodate younger skaters who cannot do triples at all.)

    Anyway, the reason the ISU cut down on double Axels was just what you said -- skaters were padding their programs with double Axels in lieu of harder jumps that they couldn't do. Skaters were doing double Axel/double Axel sequence, plus two solo double Axels.

    However, allowing a total of three double Axels does serve another purpose. If you do two triple/triple combos, or a triple/triple/triple for men, then you are up against the Zayak restrictions. If you could not throw in a double Axel to fill your last jumping pass, then there would be no benefit to attempting two triple-triples or a triple-triple-triple -- you would run out of possible jumps to do with your last pass.

    The third jump enables a jumper to avoid a triple jump they're not good at and still get points equivalent to a triple jump---in fact, it gets more points than a triple jump: 6.9 rather than 5.0 if it's a triple-loop that's being avoided.
    I don't think this is the right comparison. If the skater did 3Lo+2T+2T that skater would certainly get more points than 2A+2T+2T. The rules allow one (and only one) three-jump combination, and it is up to the skaters to find one that maximizes their point total.
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-26-2010 at 07:23 PM.

  9. #384
    mylastduchess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan123 View Post
    Thanks for all your help and time.
    Oh.. geez no problem! I didn't think anyone paid attention to my post or found them useful!

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Sorry for misreading. There's just so many posts it just all blended in my head.
    LOL, no worries. I get that too sometimes.

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    So basically, if Mao's going to be competitive, she needs the lutz and a 3-3? I wonder if CoP will allow her to land 3-3's to the point where she can put them into competition comfortably?

    If not, she's cooked meat given that Mirai's coming up, and I'm sure she'll start landing 3-3's comfortably quite soon.

    Given that the next Olympics is in Sochi, I really, really hope she stays with Tat. I think this might be her only chance.
    I think in order to be competitive she needs a real triple lutz. She does not necessarily need a 3/3. She used to do 3f/2t/2l. I also like to see her get the 3 sal, this is not a point getter jump, but it shows the judges that she is more versatile in the jump department. She definitely can learn from Evan if you can't beat them in the air, beat them on ice. I think she has the potential to do exceedingly well even level 4s in spirals, and spins.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    So basically, if Mao's going to be competitive, she needs the lutz and a 3-3? I wonder if CoP will allow her to land 3-3's to the point where she can put them into competition comfortably?

    If not, she's cooked meat given that Mirai's coming up, and I'm sure she'll start landing 3-3's comfortably quite soon.

    Given that the next Olympics is in Sochi, I really, really hope she stays with Tat. I think this might be her only chance.
    No. She's proved she's competitive without those jumps. Just she didn't win against Yuna. But then it is not only her layout. The choreography and music also diidn't help. Also, both Mao and Mirai have UR problems, so I don't think you can say Mirai has the edge in landing 3-3 more comfortably soon especially given that the panel was taking so much care at checking her jumps last night (which is not fair). But she also has that reputation of getting UR. Also with Mao you never know. She doesn't have some jumps one season, but she may have it again the next season. And why should she stay with TAT? She should find someone better.

  13. #388
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    No. She's proved she's competitive without those jumps. Just she didn't win against Yuna. But then it is not only her layout. The choreography and music also diidn't help. Also, both Mao and Mirai have UR problems, so I don't think you can say Mirai has the edge in landing 3-3 more comfortably soon especially given that the panel was taking so much care at checking her jumps last night (which is not fair). But she also has that reputation of getting UR. Also with Mao you never know. She doesn't have some jumps one season, but she may have it again the next season. And why should she stay with TAT? She should find someone better.
    I think she needs a lutz, not so much for a 3-3. Rachael Flatt was a top 10 point getter (for a single element) for doing a 3Z-2T. With all but two of the top ten doing a 3Z (many doing 2), I think Mao needs to bring that jump back first before worrying about a 3-3.

    And yeah Tat is just not that great of a fit. Who is Daisuke's coach? He/she seems to being doing the right thing....despite not landing the quad, he did a great program technically and his non-jump elements just can't be beat (and I think he should've gotten the gold over Evan).

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    However, allowing a total of three double Axels does serve another purpose. If you do two triple/triple combos, or a triple/triple/triple for men, then you are up against the Zayak restrictions. If you could not throw in a double Axel to fill your last jumping pass, then there would be no benefit to attempting two triple-triples or a triple-triple-triple -- you would run out of possible jumps to do with your last pass.
    Oh, I see. Well, Yuna doesn't do two 3-3, so she's using it as a loophole then, I guess. It really is very CoP-smart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think this is the right comparison. If the skater did 3Lo+2T+2T that skater would certainly get more points than 2A+2T+2T. The rules allow one (and only one) three-jump combination, and it is up to the skaters to find one that maximizes their point total.
    Yes, your comparison is more accurate. It's still the case that the third double-axel in Yuna's case is being used to 'pad' her program.

    Messing with the point system is so tricky, isn't it.

  15. #390
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I wonder if CoP will allow her to land 3-3's to the point where she can put them into competition comfortably?
    I don't think I understand this comment. How does the CoP disallow Mao from landing triple-triples comfortably?

    On the contrary, the CoP does everything it can to encourage triple-triples by Mao and everyone else.

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