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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #481
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    If I correctly recall, the base value of 3A was increased from 7.5 to 8.2 before the 2008~2009 season started.
    Who benefited most? Most of top male skaters could do 3A.

    Now there is grumbling about the value of 3A again. Interesting.

    If Mao had executed the 3A+2T better at the Olympics, her GOEs could have been higher.
    http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/s...er/3A2T_FS.gif

    Actually she's well-known for her tendency to underrotate the 2T which evidently tells the 2nd triple jump is not easy for her.

    Who has better technical caliber? A skater who has the 3A but not 3-3 jumps? Or a skater who has 3-3 jumps but not the 3A?

    I don't think it's easy to judge.
    I don't agree that the value of 3A+2T should be higher and extra marks should be given based on the jump difficulty.
    Last edited by szidon; 03-07-2010 at 03:56 AM.

  2. #482
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    The Back Outside Edge is arguably the easiest of the four edges for jumping. Forward Inside Edges hardly exist except for a variation on the one foot axel; Forward Outside Edge can be difficult when attempting an axel; Back Inside Edge is just plain tough to learn on it's own steam. One must use a 3turn or a mohawk turn to get a skater on a bie. When learning firgure skating we used to skate back inside edges down the straight away as well a Figure 4 in school figures.

    For Mao, I have not looked so closely at the presumed UR in her toeloop. Given her prowess for jumping skills, I would hesitate to think she has a problem with the easiest of the four takeoffs.

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by szidon View Post
    If I correctly recall, the base value of 3A was increased from 7.5 to 8.2 before the 2008~2009 season started.
    Who benefited most? Most of top male skaters could do 3A.

    Now there is grumbling about the value of 3A again. Interesting.

    If Mao had executed the 3A+2T better at the Olympics, her GOEs could have been higher.
    http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/s...er/3A2T_FS.gif

    Actually she's well-known for her tendency to underrotate the 2T which evidently tells the 2nd triple jump is not easy for her.

    Who has better technical caliber? A skater who has the 3A but not 3-3 jumps? Or a skater who has 3-3 jumps but not the 3A?

    I don't think it's easy to judge.
    I don't agree that the value of 3A+2T should be higher and extra marks should be given based on the jump difficulty.
    I don't think the essence of the issue is about which combinations are more difficult to execute. It is about whether or not the CoP systematically discourages skaters to try some of highly difficult elememts. I believe the current system does discourage 4 for men and 3A for ladies right now because the reward is not big enough, and the consequence of blowing it a bit too much to bear. For ladies, 3A will not be a game changer, though, after possible revisions as it was a rarity, and one jump does not make a program.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    The Back Outside Edge is arguably the easiest of the four edges for jumping. Forward Inside Edges hardly exist except for a variation on the one foot axel; Forward Outside Edge can be difficult when attempting an axel; Back Inside Edge is just plain tough to learn on it's own steam. One must use a 3turn or a mohawk turn to get a skater on a bie. When learning firgure skating we used to skate back inside edges down the straight away as well a Figure 4 in school figures.

    For Mao, I have not looked so closely at the presumed UR in her toeloop. Given her prowess for jumping skills, I would hesitate to think she has a problem with the easiest of the four takeoffs.
    Mao's 2T was under-rotated. It is just that the rules were not applied strictly in Vancouver on it for everyone. So, it is not really an issue. Also, many skaters including Mao use "borderline" toe pick assists in toe loop, and the rules are not enforced on it. So, it is really a matter of how strictly or consistently you enforce the rules.

    But, to be fair, under-rotation is not just about difficulty of execution perceived by us, especially in combination jumps.
    Last edited by key65man; 03-07-2010 at 01:52 PM.

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    I don´t see anything difficult to understand about Weir´s result: Unlike Yu-Na he skated to a 6,0 programme and also had a couple of mistakes. IF he had had a proper CoP programme, he would have been higher in the results. On the other hand I have lately come to the conclusion that maybe he is not able to skate to a CoP programme and that is the reason he uses old 6,0 programmes. Why else would a skater leave points on the ice in competitions which are judged under CoP-system?
    This wasn't the same Johnny giving away points like he did the past though; the double jump in one of his combos was 'tano-ed, and he executed a 3-2-2 later in his program. He screwed up one spin, that was the only mistake I remember. The jumps were executed brilliantly. He took the system much more seriously this year and it seems like he wasn't rewarded for what he did . . .

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kindertotenlieder View Post
    This wasn't the same Johnny giving away points like he did the past though; the double jump in one of his combos was 'tano-ed, and he executed a 3-2-2 later in his program. He screwed up one spin, that was the only mistake I remember. The jumps were executed brilliantly. He took the system much more seriously this year and it seems like he wasn't rewarded for what he did . . .
    In technical he gave a little bit points away by having some mistake in a jump and in a spin. Actually I was meaning PCS scores in my earlier posting. By having a 6.0 programme in a CoP-competition a skater does leave PCS points on the ice....

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    I don't think the essence of the issue is about which combinations are more difficult to execute. It is about whether or not the CoP systematically discourages skaters to try some of highly difficult elememts. I believe the current system does discourage 4 for men and 3A for ladies right now because the reward is not big enough, and the consequence of blowing it a bit too much to bear. For ladies, 3A will not be a game changer, though, after possible revisions as it was a rarity, and one jump does not make a program.
    If the system would encourage ladies to attempt the 3A and, as a result, discourage them to properly learn other 5 triple jumps, do you think it's desirable in the FS?

    Mao learned how to execute the 3A but she's not properly taught how to do the Lutz and Sal. Actually she mastered the 3T just before the 2008~2009 season. (Her 3T was the toe axel before.)
    If the 3A would be rewarded more than now, I think we could see lot of skaters like Mao.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by szidon View Post
    If the system would encourage ladies to attempt the 3A and, as a result, discourage them to properly learn other 5 triple jumps, do you think it's desirable in the FS?

    Mao learned how to execute the 3A but she's not properly taught how to do the Lutz and Sal. Actually she mastered the 3T just before the 2008~2009 season. (Her 3T was the toe axel before.)
    If the 3A would be rewarded more than now, I think we could see lot of skaters like Mao.
    Why would it discourage them to learn the other triples when we just saw that just having the 3A but missing other triples will not win you the gold? Mao's troubles with her other triples is not really due to her focusing on her 3A though. It's more to do with the looser rules on edge takeoffs back then, and the fact that her first coach did not teach her clean techniques on those jumps. It's actually cause of her issues with these jumps that led her to focus more on her 3A not the other way around. I think Mao's situation should actually encourage future skaters to actually master all their triples before learning the 3A.

  9. #489
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    Until now, I watched more than ten different coverages on the Ladies at the Olympics: NBC, BBC, British Eurosport, German Eurosport, ARD(Germany), ZDR(Germany), C-TV, SVT2(Sweden), French Eurosport, TVE2(Spain), and SBS(South Korea). No commentator opposed the ladies result.

    Rather most commentators predicted Yu-Na Kim's winning even before Kim's score was announced and Mao competed.

    It seems weird to me Stojko's comments are solely emphasized.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Why would it discourage them to learn the other triples when we just saw that just having the 3A but missing other triples will not win you the gold? Mao's troubles with her other triples is not really due to her focusing on her 3A though. It's more to do with the looser rules on edge takeoffs back then, and the fact that her first coach did not teach her clean techniques on those jumps. It's actually cause of her issues with these jumps that led her to focus more on her 3A not the other way around. I think Mao's situation should actually encourage future skaters to actually master all their triples before learning the 3A.
    I agree with you in that mastering diverse triple jumps should be encouraged.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    For Mao, I have not looked so closely at the presumed UR in her toeloop. Given her prowess for jumping skills, I would hesitate to think she has a problem with the easiest of the four takeoffs.
    Mao has been gettincg a lot of DGs on her 2nd & 3rd jumps in her combinations, most notably 2Ts. She just doesn't get the nice flow and speed out of the 1st jump to get enough height on the 2nd and 3rd jumps in many cases.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by szidon View Post
    Until now, I watched more than ten different coverages on the Ladies at the Olympics: NBC, BBC, British Eurosport, German Eurosport, ARD(Germany), ZDR(Germany), C-TV, SVT2(Sweden), French Eurosport, TVE2(Spain), and SBS(South Korea). No commentator opposed the ladies result.

    Rather most commentators predicted Yu-Na Kim's winning even before Kim's score was announced and Mao competed.

    It seems weird to me Stojko's comments are solely emphasized.
    I agree with you.

    BTW -- I think that most predicted that Yuna would win after her LP (before they announced her score) because everyone knew that Mao had to be divine to beat clean Yuna, and the chances of that happening was pretty slim, esp. given Mao's issues this season.

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Her 2A-3T got +2 GOE. If she did 3F+3T, it would be +2 GOE. But she wouldn't be able to add another 2A.
    As for bonus in second half. she could easily put the 2A-3T and the 3F in the second half. her score would have been the same if not lower for not able to do 3 2A.
    So 2 3x3 for Yuna doesn't do anything to her score.
    Bonus for second half has absolutely nothing to do with the second 3x3.
    I agree I think the score woul dbe the same because ultimately it is simply re-jigging the order of the same jumps. I don't understand why don't think shecoulnd't do three 2a though if she did the two 3/3s. She could do this:

    3Lz+3T
    2A
    3S
    3F+3T
    2A+2T+2Lp
    3Lz
    2A

    Ant

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I agree I think the score woul dbe the same because ultimately it is simply re-jigging the order of the same jumps. I don't understand why don't think shecoulnd't do three 2a though if she did the two 3/3s. She could do this:

    3Lz+3T
    2A
    3S
    3F+3T
    2A+2T+2Lp
    3Lz
    2A

    Ant
    I think only one 2A can be done solo; the others have to be in combination. So her second 3T was used in combination with a 2A to make them both legal.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I think only one 2A can be done solo; the others have to be in combination.
    Are you sure? I don't think so.

    Usually the purpose of a 2A+3T is to save an extra jumping pass without having to do a triple-triple.

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