03-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Japan Politiking in a way to benefit Mao? Nah. Not a chance! BTW, what do you mean by "favor Japanese skaters that much?" Just poking fun at you. A rhetorical q.
Originally Posted by miki88
As for Mao's sit spin right after the 3F-2Lo, plz talk to some figure skating experts or authorities about form breaking like I described to find out differing opinions. I don't give a hoot about it because the difference is 0.5 point for level 4 and 3. Just trying to let the great composer know that the world may not be out to get Mao.
03-23-2010, 09:18 PM
Key65man, I just do not know if I should call it a conspiracy. Maybe fanatic Yuna fans played a big role by using especially Internet to convince people that Yuna is the greatest. The people who does not know anything about skating believe that Yuna is the best just because everyone else is saying so and media started to say that way as well. I feel Japanese fans are much more reserved and they do not push as much as Koreans do. I can not generalize it but Koreans are much more emotional and enthusiastic about Yuna than Japsnese are feeling about Mao. As miki88 said, I feel the same way about Japanese skating federation. It is definitely quieter. I see Japanese people is less pushy and demanding in general. I am saying through my experiences because I had both Japanese and Korean students. And they are quite different!! I am not saying either one is better or worse. But maybe somehow people around Yuna has changed "the air" to go her side. As I say this again and again, both girls gave special jumps to be appreciated and both of them are about the same considering various elements. If "the air" was on Mao's side, maybe the outcome of whole season may have been different.
Last edited by PROKOFIEV; 03-23-2010 at 09:21 PM.
03-23-2010, 10:51 PM
I doubt any level of politiking was involved in the ladies event. Yes the Japanese Federation probably has the most financial resources and may be capable of influencing the judges, but I'm not reminded of a single occasion where a Japanese skater received undeservedly high marks. (Mao skates better at home and thus receives higher marks, but that's a different matter). If anything, the Japanese federation has invested its resources on lesser matters like buying out Nikolai Morozov and hosting several cheesefests. OTOH, I simply doubt the Korean federation has enough resources or pull. Unless Yuna herself is the secret puppet master behind the federation. One thing Yuna has going for her though is that she seems to be well liked by the right people. Maybe she sends them mean bibimbap every weekend, who knows? But I highly doubt her federation has anything to do with it.
And key65man, I'm not sure what you're referring to in regards to Mao's sit spin. But the technical panel was very generous to pretty much everyone except for Rachel.
03-23-2010, 11:25 PM
You keep blabbing about "the air".. can you enlighten me a little bit more? If the media declared Yuna is the best then so be it. If you think she's not then so be it. It's not a big deal.
Originally Posted by PROKOFIEV
Vancouver is over. Time to move on. Yuna won fair and square.
03-24-2010, 06:21 AM
Waiting for on-ice perfection.
Why not just hold the Olympics in Japan to get the "air" on Mao's side?
Originally Posted by PROKOFIEV
Yu-na was a heavy favorite in the eyes of numerous people with no personal interest invested in her win. Why? She was winning all over the place, with huge margins. Justifiably so. Her talent is dominant in the current crop of skaters. If you do not see it, I'm sorry because you're really missing out on a wonderfully talented skater. As for the hype (which I think you're referring to), Yu-na's first season completed in complete health was phenomenal (she won everything except GPF) with two outstanding, gorgeous programs, while Mao's 08-09 was not as great (with Masquerade not really helping her). That was the season right before the Olympics. During the Olympic season, Yu-na won every competition she participated in, while Mao didn't even make it to GPF. Yu-na seemed to be on a halcyon stride, while Mao was in a slight slump. Yu-na beat Mao in 4CC and with huge margins in Worlds and TEB. I don't blame anyone for expecting Yu-na to beat Mao again in Vancouver. What's really so wrong about that?
As for the 3A... Well, I won't even start.
So she bombed at TEB and Rostelecom because the media considered her co-favorites with Yu-na in France and the heavy favorite to win in Russia? I really don't get a word of what you're saying.
Originally Posted by PROKOFIEV
Last edited by dlgpffps; 03-24-2010 at 06:23 AM.
03-24-2010, 09:36 AM
Actually, I think he's saying that Mao erred because the media wasn't on her side at the beginning of the season. I don't get it either.
03-24-2010, 10:26 AM
Dreaming and dancing
If anything, the air that mattered would be in judges, not in the media.
In Edge, there was an interesting post of an interview with one of the Olympic judges. The judge says he would say that 10% of the judges are completely honest. He talks about the concept of "corridor" in judging PCS. If you are within the corridor, you are "safe."
Since the corridor is a group behavior, I think that judges refer to previous competition results in deciding PCS. If Skater A is supposed to receive from 7.5 to 8.5 in PCS, you should give scores around that range. I also think that the concept of the corridor may be applicable in GOE.
In judging PCS and GOE, reputation marks would play a role. Otherwise, it's inexplicable that Kozuka didn't receive among the very best scores on SS and that Johnny didn't receive huge GOE on his 3A.
The technical panel as well, I hear that reputation matters. If you are known to be prone to certain errors, the tech panel would be looking more closely whereas others may get the benefit of doubt.
Last edited by Bennett; 03-24-2010 at 10:28 AM.
03-24-2010, 10:28 AM
can't come down to Earth
Prokofiev, you seem to be saying that the air of favouritism was surrounding YuNa and it helped propel her to win. Well, she is the first favourite to win at the Olympics for a long time (Katarina Witt was the last, I think. I don't know what "air" surrounded Oksana in 1994 :P), so being considered a favourite isn't automatically good.
But YuNa skated well, and perhaps her bonuses (such as on GoE's, etc.) were a reflection of favouritism, too. However, why do you think she had that over Mao? As others pointed out, she had a phenomenal season when she won the 2009 Worlds, and it was certainly not just her 3-3. It was her programs, too...they seem to have struck a certain chord in many veterans and casuals of the sport. TEB 2009 was then followed closely, and her preparedness/dominance at that event pretty much sealed the momentum. Her 3-3 remained fairly consistent, and she still had two nicely-packaged programs.
Mao also lost momentum/air since her 2008 Worlds win. Well, I believe the downturn started in the 2008-2009 season because her Masquerade LP was not generally the best-received. The music was driving and repetitive, a stark contrast to her usually light, lyrical style. Her Claire de Lune SP saved her from losing too much of her signature style, but she was also not too consistent in earning ratified/clean 3axels. 2009-2010 took a sharper turn for the worse, stylistically, and she had even more troubles with her jumps (not just the 3axel.) Bells of Moscow is her worst LP since...forever. Mao redeemed herself at the Olympics for the most part, but I don't think her programs were able to rally judge/fan support too well.
These are a few ways in which Team YuNa helped to shift the positive airs behind them, and how Mao's team lost some of the positive airs they used to have. I don't think it is fair to say that "airs" made YuNa win at the Olympics. YuNa has been winning technically and stylistically for a whole year.
I also agree with Bennett, unfortunately...I don't think most judges mark exactly the performances that are in front of their eyes; they refer to past competitions for what is "expected" or "appropriate" to give to a skater, so you see what people call "reputation" or "trend"-based judging. It's lame.
Last edited by prettykeys; 03-24-2010 at 10:31 AM.
06-01-2010, 05:13 PM
Even if 3A worth 3 points higher that 3L, it would made no difference in outcome.
Change the rule again, that is the only way for Mao to win or pray that Yuna slip and fall.
06-06-2010, 01:52 AM
Let me just quote Dick button. It was his answer to the question about wheather the current judging systme is rewarding the quad enough but I think it easily applies to the triple axel as well.
"Absolutely, it's also rewarding all the other things go around with it. and What is a jump? A jump is a movement in the air, it has to have a beginning, a middle, and an end. It has to have an entrance and a form behind it. You cannot simply say that it's the number of revolutions only. Yes they give it enough, I wish they give some of the other things a little more"
Also, this video as well
I think Yuna's GOE is easily justified regardeless of favouritism and her PCS as well. If mao and joannie are getting 68s then 71 for Yuna is just about right.
Also, people who say Yuna won because of favouritism simply don't have any legitimate argument.
She was under so much pressure not just from her country but from the entire skating world,
and she was the only top lady that skated a clean program that night.
Triple axel can only help you when you have similar technical content for the rest of the program.
Going for 2 at the beginning and cheaping out on the rest of the program + making mistakes
don't really get you near the gold medal.