Stojko opposes the ladies result | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

yangjie

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
former Canadian medallist Elvis Stojko, suggested that Kim's marks were too high. He noted that Asada had successfully landed a triple Axel - she's the only woman who executes them regularly in competition - and got fewer marks than Kim's easier triple Lutz.
The argument is similar to the one over whether American Evan Lysacek should have won the gold medal without having landed a quad like his competitor Evgeni Plushenko.

"Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=50985.html#kim+yu+na+path+gold

I think another controversial result is about to be born..
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Well, I do think that Yuna was slighly overmarked and Mao was slightly undermarked, even without taking into account that the triple-axel is way too underrated under CoP.

It will be interesting what the results will be after the LP. If both girls skate without major mistakes in the LP, and Mao ends up with a silver, Mao will have failed to have become a Olympic gold medalist after successfully doing THREE triple-axels against someone who is an awesome skater but nevertheless racks up enough points to win by doing three double-axels in her long program.

This will be sure proof that the present scoring system is out of whack.
 

stickle

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Oh Elvis. Go crawl back in your hole. Nobody cared what you thought about the scoring of the men's competition and they care even less about your comments on the women's. Your time has passed. You're like the 80 year old man boring everyone to death with their stories of what happened back in the good ole days.
 

screech

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2005
Elvis is just pissed because all he had to offer the sport is a quad, and he never became an O's champ even with it.
 

Marrymeyunakim

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Elvis is still trying to validate his opinions about the mens' competition, by using this as another example of how the scoring system failed to deliver. He doesn't actually care about womens' figure skating as his chauvinistic, pig-headed commentary on the men's competition highlights.
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
"Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=50985.html#kim+yu+na+path+gold

I think another controversial result is about to be born..

1. "Don't get me wrong, Evan's a great guy, but ... blahblahblah." (I'm not on Team Plushy or Lysacek, btw)

2. Not according to the rules of CoP, Elvis!

3. He'll probably be the one to start the "controversy". Le sigh.

4. She was probably a little high, though. I'll agree with that, but really, this is just an extension of his quad argument. (I soooo knew this would happen)

5. I swear, after Thursday, he'll probably (depends on the results) say that someone resusitated figure skating, but then it died again. :sheesh:

Team Mao+Yuna+Joannie+_________:)
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Well, it's definitely worth debating if a 3Axel-2Toe should be worth more than a 3Lutz-3Toe. The former was considered more difficult in the past.
 

ranjake

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 19, 2005
ugh! not again. i think elvis needs a job or something. his stint as the figure skating authority is not cutting it for me.
 

Ren

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Before Yu-Na's actual scores were shown, I actually thought the gap (between Yu-Na and Mao's results) was going to be close. I can see where Stojko is coming from, but under/overscoring aside, the IJS is what we have right now.

IIRC, Timothy Goebel (well known for quads himself) responded to Stojko's statements about the men's quad, and I find that his comments could also be relevant to the ladies' triple axel concerns. (http://currentskateofmind.com/2010/02/21/timothy-goebel-responds-to-elvis-stojkos-rant/) While Goebel thought that the quad should be given a higher value, we have to work with the system which we have today. He suggested having an open dialogue with the ISU to determine the status of the quad. I think we can apply the same suggestion to the triple axel. The IJS isn't perfect, but I rather like that it also emphasizes the importance of the other elements in skating. I much prefer Goebel's articulation of what might be wrong with the current system to Stojko's declarations; I feel that the latter's experiences have deeply colored his views of present-day competition. The website Blazing Blades has posted a Russian commentary by Igor Poroshin (it's translated into English), and while the main subject is Plushenko (and the quad, and Lysacek), he also mentions Stojko. Here is the link. http://kwantifiable.xanga.com/72236...ussian-bluster-about-plushenkos-olympic-loss/ Sorry if it's a little off-topic.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Well, it's definitely worth debating if a 3Axel-2Toe should be worth more than a 3Lutz-3Toe. The former was considered more difficult in the past.
There are base values for the combo and it is the sum of the two jumps. If Mao got the correct sum, then there is nothing to debate. Check the protocols.
3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
3Z=6.8 + 4.0 sums up go 10.8

I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3T, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.
 
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Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Hmm...from looking at the protocals, is it right that the base value of the 3A/2toe is worth less than the 3lutz/3toe; 9.50 vs. 10.0?! IMO, the 3A combo should be worth way more like 4 points. IMO, the placement of the sp could have gone either way for Kim and Asada, but the 5 pt disparity is unjustified.
 

peg2010

Spectator
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Before Yu-Na's actual scores were shown, I actually thought the gap (between Yu-Na and Mao's results) was going to be close. I can see where Stojko is coming from, but under/overscoring aside, the IJS is what we have right now.

IIRC, Timothy Goebel (well known for quads himself) responded to Stojko's statements about the men's quad, and I find that his comments could also be relevant to the ladies' triple axel concerns. (http://currentskateofmind.com/2010/02/21/timothy-goebel-responds-to-elvis-stojkos-rant/) While Goebel thought that the quad should be given a higher value, we have to work with the system which we have today. He suggested having an open dialogue with the ISU to determine the status of the quad. I think we can apply the same suggestion to the triple axel. The IJS isn't perfect, but I rather like that it also emphasizes the importance of the other elements in skating. I much prefer Goebel's articulation of what might be wrong with the current system to Stojko's declarations; I feel that the latter's experiences have deeply colored his views of present-day competition. The website Blazing Blades has posted a Russian commentary by Igor Poroshin (it's translated into English), and while the main subject is Plushenko (and the quad, and Lysacek), he also mentions Stojko. Here is the link. http://kwantifiable.xanga.com/72236...ussian-bluster-about-plushenkos-olympic-loss/ Sorry if it's a little off-topic.
What an interesting article and viewpoint! Thanks for posting. I've always felt that music could make or break a program.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
What an interesting article and viewpoint! Thanks for posting. I've always felt that music could make or break a program.

It's an interesting article, but I find it highly controversial to argue that an Olympic medal should be determined by the skater's musical taste. If it were the Proms or Grammy Awards, sure, but not the Olympics.

Regarding this debate, I don't think it can be reduced to asking which combo should have more base value. I think that it has to begin with how the triples should be valued against each other, and how the doubles should be valued against each other and also against the triples. It's also about asking if GoE should have so much weight in determining the scores.

I think it's a delicate balancing act, but as I have already said, if Mao takes silver despite having performed solidly with three triple-axels, against Yuna's great performance where her double-axels will have played a determining role, then this has got to raise some questions about the present system.

In any case, I think that both Yuna and Mao gave Olympic medal worthy SP performances. It definitely is not Yuna's fault that she is so well-served by the present scoring system.
 
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Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
There are base values for the combo and it is the sum of the two jumps. If Mao got the correct sum, then there is nothing to debate. Check the protocols.
3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
3Z=6.8 + 6.8 sums up go 13.6

I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3Z, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.

Uh. How do you do Triple Lutz Triple Lutz combination?

Also Mao flutzes.
 

Hsuhs

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
I don't know how accurate Kim's sp marks are, one thing surprised me though:
a rather low GOE Asada got for her 3A+2T combo: +0.60. That's all. It's as if the judges are saying 'Nah, it was ok, but we've seen better. Much much better 3A+2T combos tonight'. Oh, have they really?

And I'm not even commenting on Gedevanishvili's + 0.20 GOE on that 2A done out of the spiral. Who cares, right?
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I don't know how accurate Kim's sp marks are, one thing surprised me though:
a rather low GOE Asada got for her 3A+2T combo: +0.60. That's all. It's as if the judges are saying 'Nah, it was ok, but we've seen better. Much much better 3A+2T combos tonight'. Oh, have they really?

And I'm not even commenting on Gedevanishvili's + 0.20 GOE on that 2A done out of the spiral. Who cares, right?

Actually I think the lack of comparisons might be actually hurting Mao. Since she is the only women doing this combo now. The judges can only compare her with the men or past women like Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge). Whereas, there is more comparison for 3-3 and clearly Yuna's are the best in terms of speed and height.
 

Hsuhs

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Actually I think the lack of comparisons might be actually hurting Mao. Since she is the only women doing this combo now. The judges can only compare her with the men or past women like Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge).
I think you're right reg the lack of comparison. But if they keep doing that, a new material for comparison may never arrive. They've already practically done that with harder 3+3s, now they discourage ladies from learning 3A.
 

Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Actually I think the lack of comparisons might be actually hurting Mao. Since she is the only women doing this combo now. The judges can only compare her with the men or past women like Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge). Whereas, there is more comparison for 3-3 and clearly Yuna's are the best in terms of speed and height.

I agree with you, but the judges should not compare the ladies' GOE with the men's, not only for the 3As, but for all other jumps. The men usually have more speed, height, etc than the ladies. The 3Axel for the ladies is so rare these days...and to give it only a 9.5 base value is absurd, and less than the 3lutz/3toe combo. This is not Kim's fault...I adore her skating...but figure skating is a sport, isn't it?
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
former Canadian medallist Elvis Stojko, suggested that Kim's marks were too high. He noted that Asada had successfully landed a triple Axel - she's the only woman who executes them regularly in competition - and got fewer marks than Kim's easier triple Lutz.
The argument is similar to the one over whether American Evan Lysacek should have won the gold medal without having landed a quad like his competitor Evgeni Plushenko.

"Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=50985.html#kim+yu+na+path+gold

I think another controversial result is about to be born..

Why does anyone even ask this idiot his opinion.

He's either been misquoted or he's actually even dumber than I first thought. Perhaps he isn't capable of simple reading comprehension and adding up. Elvis i have a calculater you can have (not borrow but actuall have) so that you can try to get your tiny pea brain around this idea.

Here's the simple instructions for you:

1. Look up the values in the scale of values for the following jumps: Triple Axel, Triple Lutz, Triple Toe-loop and double toe-loop.
2. Write down "Asada" on the left side of your paper.
3. Underneath "Asada" write down the total points for a Triple Axel and a Double toe-loop.
4. Write down "Kim" on the right side of the paper.
5. Underneath "Kim" write down the total points for a Triple Lutz and a Triple Toe.
6. Now which one has the higher point value.

Like it or not that's the way with COP. To suggest that a 3Lz/3T is somehow easier than a 3A/2T is just plain stupid. Yes the 3 Axel is a difficult jump, but a 3/3 combination is more difficult than a 3A/2 combination. The double toe is the easiest jump that you will see performed by elite skaters. It is a jump that some adult skaters can land - tacking it onto a 3A is not an impressive feat in and of itself - the triple axel is the only impressive thing about such a combination. Most elite senior (and actually probably junior too) skaters can tack a double toe on the end of any jump.

And if he wasn't misquoted then someone roll up a copy of the COP and bat him over his nose like a naughty puppy! Kim didn't get more marks for her "easier" triple lutz compared to Mao's harder 3A, she actually got less points, what she got more marks for was her harder triple toe on the end compared to the easier double toe Mao tried.

Ant
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
...Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge).

OK I know this is off topic, but MAN I love this lady's 3As :love: I wish more men could jump like her.

But to return to the topic, I think Stojko has a point about the most difficult jumps though. Most certainly, their base values should be reconsidered, in light of the Plushy vs. Evan controversy and (forbid this happen) a possible Yu-na vs. Mao debate*. But there's nothing that can be done at the moment. Changes come slow through a bureaucratic process. At the moment skaters should work with the system, however flawed, and try to tweak it. He should stop being so vociferous about his opinions. It doesn't help anyone. It just fuels controversy.

* I want both of the them to skate clean, but can you just imagine the national animosity and nastiness to emerge if this were to happen? Yuck.
 
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