Stojko opposes the ladies result | Page 25 | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
If I correctly recall, the base value of 3A was increased from 7.5 to 8.2 before the 2008~2009 season started.
Who benefited most? Most of top male skaters could do 3A.

Now there is grumbling about the value of 3A again. Interesting.

If Mao had executed the 3A+2T better at the Olympics, her GOEs could have been higher.
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/bachadmirer/3A2T_FS.gif

Actually she's well-known for her tendency to underrotate the 2T which evidently tells the 2nd triple jump is not easy for her.

Who has better technical caliber? A skater who has the 3A but not 3-3 jumps? Or a skater who has 3-3 jumps but not the 3A?

I don't think it's easy to judge.
I don't agree that the value of 3A+2T should be higher and extra marks should be given based on the jump difficulty.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
The Back Outside Edge is arguably the easiest of the four edges for jumping. Forward Inside Edges hardly exist except for a variation on the one foot axel; Forward Outside Edge can be difficult when attempting an axel; Back Inside Edge is just plain tough to learn on it's own steam. One must use a 3turn or a mohawk turn to get a skater on a bie. When learning firgure skating we used to skate back inside edges down the straight away as well a Figure 4 in school figures.

For Mao, I have not looked so closely at the presumed UR in her toeloop. Given her prowess for jumping skills, I would hesitate to think she has a problem with the easiest of the four takeoffs.
 

key65man

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
If I correctly recall, the base value of 3A was increased from 7.5 to 8.2 before the 2008~2009 season started.
Who benefited most? Most of top male skaters could do 3A.

Now there is grumbling about the value of 3A again. Interesting.

If Mao had executed the 3A+2T better at the Olympics, her GOEs could have been higher.
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss144/bachadmirer/3A2T_FS.gif

Actually she's well-known for her tendency to underrotate the 2T which evidently tells the 2nd triple jump is not easy for her.

Who has better technical caliber? A skater who has the 3A but not 3-3 jumps? Or a skater who has 3-3 jumps but not the 3A?

I don't think it's easy to judge.
I don't agree that the value of 3A+2T should be higher and extra marks should be given based on the jump difficulty.

I don't think the essence of the issue is about which combinations are more difficult to execute. It is about whether or not the CoP systematically discourages skaters to try some of highly difficult elememts. I believe the current system does discourage 4 for men and 3A for ladies right now because the reward is not big enough, and the consequence of blowing it a bit too much to bear. For ladies, 3A will not be a game changer, though, after possible revisions as it was a rarity, and one jump does not make a program.
 

key65man

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
The Back Outside Edge is arguably the easiest of the four edges for jumping. Forward Inside Edges hardly exist except for a variation on the one foot axel; Forward Outside Edge can be difficult when attempting an axel; Back Inside Edge is just plain tough to learn on it's own steam. One must use a 3turn or a mohawk turn to get a skater on a bie. When learning firgure skating we used to skate back inside edges down the straight away as well a Figure 4 in school figures.

For Mao, I have not looked so closely at the presumed UR in her toeloop. Given her prowess for jumping skills, I would hesitate to think she has a problem with the easiest of the four takeoffs.

Mao's 2T was under-rotated. It is just that the rules were not applied strictly in Vancouver on it for everyone. So, it is not really an issue. Also, many skaters including Mao use "borderline" toe pick assists in toe loop, and the rules are not enforced on it. So, it is really a matter of how strictly or consistently you enforce the rules.

But, to be fair, under-rotation is not just about difficulty of execution perceived by us, especially in combination jumps.
 
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Joined
Feb 27, 2007
I don´t see anything difficult to understand about Weir´s result: Unlike Yu-Na he skated to a 6,0 programme and also had a couple of mistakes. IF he had had a proper CoP programme, he would have been higher in the results. On the other hand I have lately come to the conclusion that maybe he is not able to skate to a CoP programme and that is the reason he uses old 6,0 programmes. Why else would a skater leave points on the ice in competitions which are judged under CoP-system?

This wasn't the same Johnny giving away points like he did the past though; the double jump in one of his combos was 'tano-ed, and he executed a 3-2-2 later in his program. He screwed up one spin, that was the only mistake I remember. The jumps were executed brilliantly. He took the system much more seriously this year and it seems like he wasn't rewarded for what he did . . .
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
This wasn't the same Johnny giving away points like he did the past though; the double jump in one of his combos was 'tano-ed, and he executed a 3-2-2 later in his program. He screwed up one spin, that was the only mistake I remember. The jumps were executed brilliantly. He took the system much more seriously this year and it seems like he wasn't rewarded for what he did . . .

In technical he gave a little bit points away by having some mistake in a jump and in a spin. Actually I was meaning PCS scores in my earlier posting. By having a 6.0 programme in a CoP-competition a skater does leave PCS points on the ice....
 

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
I don't think the essence of the issue is about which combinations are more difficult to execute. It is about whether or not the CoP systematically discourages skaters to try some of highly difficult elememts. I believe the current system does discourage 4 for men and 3A for ladies right now because the reward is not big enough, and the consequence of blowing it a bit too much to bear. For ladies, 3A will not be a game changer, though, after possible revisions as it was a rarity, and one jump does not make a program.

If the system would encourage ladies to attempt the 3A and, as a result, discourage them to properly learn other 5 triple jumps, do you think it's desirable in the FS?

Mao learned how to execute the 3A but she's not properly taught how to do the Lutz and Sal. Actually she mastered the 3T just before the 2008~2009 season. (Her 3T was the toe axel before.)
If the 3A would be rewarded more than now, I think we could see lot of skaters like Mao.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
If the system would encourage ladies to attempt the 3A and, as a result, discourage them to properly learn other 5 triple jumps, do you think it's desirable in the FS?

Mao learned how to execute the 3A but she's not properly taught how to do the Lutz and Sal. Actually she mastered the 3T just before the 2008~2009 season. (Her 3T was the toe axel before.)
If the 3A would be rewarded more than now, I think we could see lot of skaters like Mao.

Why would it discourage them to learn the other triples when we just saw that just having the 3A but missing other triples will not win you the gold? Mao's troubles with her other triples is not really due to her focusing on her 3A though. It's more to do with the looser rules on edge takeoffs back then, and the fact that her first coach did not teach her clean techniques on those jumps. It's actually cause of her issues with these jumps that led her to focus more on her 3A not the other way around. I think Mao's situation should actually encourage future skaters to actually master all their triples before learning the 3A.
 

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Until now, I watched more than ten different coverages on the Ladies at the Olympics: NBC, BBC, British Eurosport, German Eurosport, ARD(Germany), ZDR(Germany), C-TV, SVT2(Sweden), French Eurosport, TVE2(Spain), and SBS(South Korea). No commentator opposed the ladies result.

Rather most commentators predicted Yu-Na Kim's winning even before Kim's score was announced and Mao competed.

It seems weird to me Stojko's comments are solely emphasized.
 

szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Why would it discourage them to learn the other triples when we just saw that just having the 3A but missing other triples will not win you the gold? Mao's troubles with her other triples is not really due to her focusing on her 3A though. It's more to do with the looser rules on edge takeoffs back then, and the fact that her first coach did not teach her clean techniques on those jumps. It's actually cause of her issues with these jumps that led her to focus more on her 3A not the other way around. I think Mao's situation should actually encourage future skaters to actually master all their triples before learning the 3A.

I agree with you in that mastering diverse triple jumps should be encouraged. :)
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
For Mao, I have not looked so closely at the presumed UR in her toeloop. Given her prowess for jumping skills, I would hesitate to think she has a problem with the easiest of the four takeoffs.

Mao has been gettincg a lot of DGs on her 2nd & 3rd jumps in her combinations, most notably 2Ts. She just doesn't get the nice flow and speed out of the 1st jump to get enough height on the 2nd and 3rd jumps in many cases.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Until now, I watched more than ten different coverages on the Ladies at the Olympics: NBC, BBC, British Eurosport, German Eurosport, ARD(Germany), ZDR(Germany), C-TV, SVT2(Sweden), French Eurosport, TVE2(Spain), and SBS(South Korea). No commentator opposed the ladies result.

Rather most commentators predicted Yu-Na Kim's winning even before Kim's score was announced and Mao competed.

It seems weird to me Stojko's comments are solely emphasized.

I agree with you.

BTW -- I think that most predicted that Yuna would win after her LP (before they announced her score) because everyone knew that Mao had to be divine to beat clean Yuna, and the chances of that happening was pretty slim, esp. given Mao's issues this season.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Her 2A-3T got +2 GOE. If she did 3F+3T, it would be +2 GOE. But she wouldn't be able to add another 2A.
As for bonus in second half. she could easily put the 2A-3T and the 3F in the second half. her score would have been the same if not lower for not able to do 3 2A.
So 2 3x3 for Yuna doesn't do anything to her score.
Bonus for second half has absolutely nothing to do with the second 3x3.

I agree I think the score woul dbe the same because ultimately it is simply re-jigging the order of the same jumps. I don't understand why don't think shecoulnd't do three 2a though if she did the two 3/3s. She could do this:

3Lz+3T
2A
3S
3F+3T
2A+2T+2Lp
3Lz
2A

Ant
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I agree I think the score woul dbe the same because ultimately it is simply re-jigging the order of the same jumps. I don't understand why don't think shecoulnd't do three 2a though if she did the two 3/3s. She could do this:

3Lz+3T
2A
3S
3F+3T
2A+2T+2Lp
3Lz
2A

Ant
I think only one 2A can be done solo; the others have to be in combination. So her second 3T was used in combination with a 2A to make them both legal.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
I think only one 2A can be done solo; the others have to be in combination. So her second 3T was used in combination with a 2A to make them both legal.

No the Zayak rule about repetition of jumps applies only to triples. You can repeat as many double jumps as you like without them being in combination. The only rule for the double axel is that you can only have a maximum of three double axels in one programme.

Ant
 

key65man

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
If the system would encourage ladies to attempt the 3A and, as a result, discourage them to properly learn other 5 triple jumps, do you think it's desirable in the FS?

Mao learned how to execute the 3A but she's not properly taught how to do the Lutz and Sal. Actually she mastered the 3T just before the 2008~2009 season. (Her 3T was the toe axel before.)
If the 3A would be rewarded more than now, I think we could see lot of skaters like Mao.

Not necessarily. It really depends on how you reward/encourage/not discourage difficult elements. 3A is just one example of it. You can bet, once some countries stop serioulsy politiking against the basic fluency in triples or a minimum number of different triples to be demonstrated in LP for ladies, you will see the rule of basic fluency taking effect sooner or later. In order for that to happen, some lady skaters must retire or some countries have a new crop of skaters not hurt by the rules.

The men's has had three Olympic champions in a row with quads before Lysacek. You can say, quads have become a tradition, which is why a system discouraging quads is a regress. For ladies, 3A has not been a tradition. It has been more or less a novelty. There will be other measures to prevent 3A from being a dominant a factor for the ladies.

That is, one jump will not do, especially for ladies.
 
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spark67

Spectator
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
What I find astonishing is all this talk about the jumps, as if they're the "be-all, end-all" aspect to figure skating. Is this the main reason we watch it? Do I assume that none of you tune in to ice dancing? Because ice dancing, while it does have its own difficult elements, has no jumps to speak of. And yet, if you were fortunate to have watched Virtue/Moir from Canada and Davis/White from The United States, you'd have been blown away by the sheer beauty, elegance and power of these skaters. Now, I do not pretend to have any "technical" knowledge of ice skating. But I do enjoy it immensely. And perhaps that's the reason why I'm having my "say" about the original concept of this thread, which was a controversial comment from Elvis Stojko.
Kurt Browning, when asked how he felt about Stojko's comments, said that he initially agrees with Elvis that the 3A/Quad jumps should be higher. HOWEVER, he also said that it should only be ONE part of the scoring. Otherwise, he said you should just line people up and have them jump over and over again. That, he said, is NOT figure skating. And I totally agree with him. Did Yuna win unfairly? No. Perhaps, if I give in to the prevailing argument that the 3A should be given more points, there would be a 2 or 3 point lead in her SP over Mao Asada. However, the FS determined ultimately who would win the gold medal. Mao failed to perform a clean FS and no one can take the responsibility for that except for Mao. But what garnered Yuna the huge points is that her coach and choreographer drew up the program with the current ISU rules & regulations in place so that if Yuna skated clean programs, it would allow her to accumulate the most points possible. Brian Orser also questioned why Mao's coaching staff didn't get on board with that. It may be argued that Brian was just being "commercial" or "slick" but I feel that he was living up to his expectations as her coach and giving her a program that would allow her to win. Why can't Mao's people do the same? Clearly, she's skilled enough.

Everyone here will have a BIASED "favorite" skater. That's cool because everyone's looking at each skater through their own rose-colored lenses. And our favorite skater may win or lose. But we all know that in our hearts, gold or not, they're always winners.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Not necessarily. It really depends on how you reward/encourage/not discourage difficult elements. 3A is just one example of it. You can bet, once some countries stop serioulsy politiking against the basic fluency in triples or a minimum number of different triples to be demonstrated in LP for ladies, you will see the rule of basic fluency taking effect sooner or later. In order for that to happen, some lady skaters must retire or some countries have a new crop of skaters not hurt by the rules.

The men's has had three Olympic champions in a row with quads before Lysacek. You can say, quads have become a tradition, which is why a system discouraging quads is a regress. For ladies, 3A has not been a tradition. It has been more or less a novelty. There will be other measures to prevent 3A from being a dominant a factor for the ladies.

That is, one jump will not do, especially for ladies.

And I kind of think it would be too bad if the 3a started showing up more among the ladies to the detriment of a the 3-3, which is what happened with Mao's skating. It's great that she can do a 3a (most of the time.) But somehow, it's more satisfying that Yuna can do such an amazing, huge and technical PERFECT 3 lutz-3 toe.
The 3 lutz-3 toe is NOT an element that most women skaters have mastered. Not at all. It's still a reach, especially to pull it off with no flutz and with ease.
Mao made history by pulling of two 3 axles in an Olympic LP, so good for her and I happen to be great fan. But Mao cannot do a 3 lutz-3 toe the way Yuna can. Not even close. So who is to say which of them shows the greatest technical ability?
Yuna is certainly pushing the technical boundaries of her sport.
There is something to be said about quality and the quality of Yuna's jumps are breathtaking.
 
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