Page 11 of 35 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 165 of 520

Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #151
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    miki88 lol

    I find your opinions to be pretty reasonable. It seems you're coming under fire in multiple discussions for them, though, hehe. I like YuNa's spirals...I love Mao's. From the judges' point of view though, it seems that positions aren't the only consideration (although to me, they are the most noticeable.) YuNa seems to be given credit for her edging and speed.
    Interesting that "edging" receives no GOE bullet in the spiral category. She should not get credit for this alone according to the rules. Perhaps they should add that category ALTHOUGH I think they are considering the edge a given since there is no positive mark for it but only a negative for poor edge quality.

    I think Mao's seq has a little more flow than Yu-Na's. I also think aesthetically it is more pleasing - ie has better line overall.
    My bullets come out 5-4 with Mao on top - but that still comes out to +2GOE. So no difference at the end of the day.

  2. #152
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    298
    I have been following this thread and others since last night. Now that I have finally calmed down (and caught up on sleep) after all the excitement, here are my two cents:

    I thought both Mao and Yuna did an amazing job. It was so refreshing to see the old Mao back! God have I have missed that Mao smile! And Yuna, what can I say? I though she was amazing as always, although a bit reserved. But who can blame her? After all the pressure and expectations, she delivered. I was so happy for her, but I expected an immediate outcry after her scores came up, and boy, did that happen.

    IMHO the main problem with the "Yuna was overscored" croud (which I think intersects a lot with the "Plushy should have won" club) is that they are basing their assessment on what they think the scores "should" have been based on: Mao should have gotten more credit for the 3A, Plushy should have won because he had a quad, Mao's spins and spirals should have gotten more GOEs because they're prettier... etc. The main issue these arguments fail to acknowledge is that the scores are based on what the COP says the base values of the jumps and the criteria for + GOEs are. These are not always in agreement with what the fans think they should be, especially when those fan perceptions are heavily based on the 6.0 system. If you look at the COP requirements for high GOEs in spins and spirals you'll find that Yuna satisfies those requirements and is therefore rewarded accordingly. For example, for spirals, edge control and speed have more effect on GOEs than the beauty of the position. For spins, it's all about the centering, speed, change of edge/foot and number of different positions. Yuna is as good as Mao (if not better in some areas like speed, edging, positions held longer) as Mao. Assuming both Mao and Yuna and their coaches could read and count, it was their responsability to build up their programs to maximize points. Team Yuna did an excellent job in that regard, Team Mao did not (I seriously question TT's ability to add simple numbers).
    Now that doesn't mean that the COP cannot be adjusted to reflect higher values for pretty positions, triple axels and quads, but this is not going to happen now, during the Qlympics. Changes can be made for following seasons and there are ways to go about suggesting and discussing those changes. For this season, the rules have been set. Play by them or you lose.

    Where Yuna accumulates more points than Mao is in the quality of her jumps: She enters her jumps at high speed and has nice flow and positions out of them (check out that checked position out of the triple flip of you're wondering why she got more GOEs on that jump), her combo jumps are equal in height and cover almost 25 feet!! While Mao started her combo with a great 3A, her 2T barely lifted above the ice and almost screeched to a halt. Yuna's combo had 0.5 points extra in base value and she gained around 2.5 points over Mao in jump GOEs (1.5 for the combo and 1 for the flip, approximately). I think that was very fair. Add that to the 1.5 gain in PCs, which is due to Yuna's superior expression, speed, choreography and interpretation, and there you have it: 5 points.

    In reality, I thought both were overscored by 1 or 2 points, but this has been happening across disciplines.

    Sorry for the long post.. just had to get it off my chest. Congrats to Mao and Yuna for an outstanding job last night, although, for me, the night belonged to Joannie.
    Last edited by yunasashafan; 02-24-2010 at 08:18 PM.

  3. #153
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    617
    I think the base value for quad and 3A is already high enough. (They increased the base values maybe 2 seasons ago?) However, I agree that combination jump score shouldn't be merely the sum of each jumps. Everybody knows doing 3Lz+3T is much more difficult than just doing them seperately. I don't have clear idea how to adjust them though.



    As for Yuna's spins and spirals being not good, sorry, I find it ridiculous.
    Here is NBC's Yuna and Mao head-to-head video.

    http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/[color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color]...mao+asada+head

    Yuna's spins are obviously faster than Mao's here in this particular competition and their positions are just about the same. So many people complain about Yuna's leg position on layback spin and praise Mao's position at the same time. It puzzles me because it's not like Mao herself has total turn out and toe point either. When it comes to back position, actually Yuna is better. See for yourself. The only position that Mao is superior to Yuna is Biellmann in my opinion. I think Caroline, Mirai and Alissa are heavenly layback spinners but Mao? Nah.

    And about spirals, I think they are both great. Having nice position is a wow factor on TV, but great speed and ice coverage is also a wow factor in the arena. (Believe me, it really is. )

  4. #154
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,803
    Quote Originally Posted by edge31 View Post
    Interesting that "edging" receives no GOE bullet in the spiral category. She should not get credit for this alone according to the rules. Perhaps they should add that category ALTHOUGH I think they are considering the edge a given since there is no positive mark for it but only a negative for poor edge quality.

    I think Mao's seq has a little more flow than Yu-Na's. I also think aesthetically it is more pleasing - ie has better line overall.
    My bullets come out 5-4 with Mao on top - but that still comes out to +2GOE. So no difference at the end of the day.
    1) good flow, energy and execution
    2) good speed during sequence
    3) good body line and full extension
    4) minimal delay between spiral positions
    5) good flexibility
    6) creativity and originality
    7) ability to attain positions and variations quickly and effortlessly
    8) element matched to the musical structure

    I'm pretty sure edging is part of the first bullet in terms of "execution", and that bullet is one that is credited to YuNa.

  5. #155
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    902
    I am not a Yu Na fan. I find her to be a cold, emotionless, full of herself skater and that is very off-putting to me. But she skated the complete package last night and deserved 1st placement. That is not to say that she has first rate spins, spirals and laybacks-she doesn't. But overall she was the best. I also agree with Stojko that Mao's triple axel combination has too low a point value. I have seen Mao do much better in the PCS area. Yu Na had her beat in PCS last night. The one person who was totally underscored was Mirai. I was thrilled for Joannie and I am praying for a great skate for her tomorrow night. My heart is with Joannie and if she could win the gold, I would be beyond ecstatic.

  6. #156
    Lambiel is the best!!
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    450
    Elvis opposes another result???
    How shocking and unprecedented!!!

    While I do agree that the harder jumps should have higher base points than what the current system offers, he should really stop basing the entire performance on one or two jumps.
    It's getting way too annoying.

  7. #157
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,657
    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyjl View Post
    ... the Celebrated Jumping Frog of Ontario County....

  8. #158
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2 View Post
    I am not a Yu Na fan. I find her to be a cold, emotionless, full of herself skater and that is very off-putting to me. But she skated the complete package last night and deserved 1st placement. That is not to say that she has first rate spins, spirals and laybacks-she doesn't. But overall she was the best. I also agree with Stojko that Mao's triple axel combination has too low a point value. I have seen Mao do much better in the PCS area. Yu Na had her beat in PCS last night. The one person who was totally underscored was Mirai. I was thrilled for Joannie and I am praying for a great skate for her tomorrow night. My heart is with Joannie and if she could win the gold, I would be beyond ecstatic.
    ITA with your entire post.

  9. #159
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Kenai, AK
    Posts
    18,721
    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post

    OT house-keeping/feedback - what's with the big spaces before quotes...oh and every time i reply in this thread i get a bunch of multi-quotes appearing where i've replied before??

    Ant
    no clue, will investigate, though.

  10. #160
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    298
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    no clue, will investigate, though.
    not sure if this is of any help, but I get different layouts on my laptop and my office computer. My laptop screen is 15.4" and has Windows Vista while my office PC has a 24" screen and Windows 7.

    Maybe it depends of the resolution?

    ETA: I see the white spaces on my laptop but not on my office PC

  11. #161
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    1) good flow, energy and execution
    2) good speed during sequence
    3) good body line and full extension
    4) minimal delay between spiral positions
    5) good flexibility
    6) creativity and originality
    7) ability to attain positions and variations quickly and effortlessly
    8) element matched to the musical structure

    I'm pretty sure edging is part of the first bullet in terms of "execution", and that bullet is one that is credited to YuNa.
    Looking at the words used and the groupings of the first bullet I tend to see "execution" as the overall performance of the sequence - ie shape, pattern, size of the seq; any arm movements; any character involved; focus; etc. . Things that are more intangible.
    To me, it seems that the edge quality is something that they don't want to get into evaluating as far as how good it is. There is a -GOE for poor edge quality and that is easy to see. But it's harder to say what degree of good edge quality should set the skaters apart. Especially when they all pretty much use the same pattern and large looping curves.
    Plus sometimes a really good edge will kill the flow of a sequence which would make that grouping void itself...

    In Yu-Na's case, I don't see any edges that I haven't seen before. She does the inside spiral but her edge is not so deep - the pattern and shape of her seq. preclude that.
    But her general performance of the sequence was good. SO she gets the bullet but not for "edges".

  12. #162
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Lloret de Mar, Spain
    Posts
    377
    About jumps: I don't think I can judge it properly since I have not that much experience, but I think changing the value of a jump is a very serious deal. It's obvious that jumps have different difficulty, but it's also true that different skaters may find one jump easier than other. It's much harder for Yuna to do 3A while for Mao is may be harder to do 3Lz or 3-3 combination. So the jumps have to be balanced and the most important thing is to avoid overhyping the value of a certain jump.
    I mean, we can't give a huge advantage to the skater that is natural jumper and can do, to say so, a quad, over the skater that can't do it, but has everything else much better.

    Also the very high value of a certain element may push some skaters into learning it while harming other aspects of their skating. For example, if the value of the 3A was 10, then Yuna probably would push herself into learning it and as the result she could learn how to jump it with low consistency, but at the same time not having 3-3 at all, and that would be very harmful to her as a skater. That could be a possible outcome of this.

    I think that really skating should progress into versatility rather than into particular types of jumps or combinations. But maybe you're right and the base value of some elements have to be raised a bit.

    About spins and spirals of Yuna: I'm also tired of reading that they are bad. They are not bad. I agree that they are not looking as impressive as of some other skaters; and there are skaters that can't pass Nationals and they are doing them more beautifully. I think, that the explanation of this is that Yuna is not very flexible by nature. Probably initially she was less flexible than an average girl. It's a miracle, that she can do a Bielmann spiral, as someone already said... But she worked incredibly hard to achieve all those elements and as she does them accordingly to ISU guidelines, they should be scored high. I understand, that she still struggles while doing them, but what she can do? It's amazing how she does them with all the speed and ice coverage she gets, surpassing her initial limitations.
    I think she really deserves some credit for this...
    And personally I think that they are beautiful enough, while I admit, that some other skaters have them better, like Min Jung Kwak.
    Last edited by Daniel5555; 02-24-2010 at 09:57 PM.

  13. #163
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    9,347
    About spins and spirals of Yuna: I'm also tired of reading that they are bad. They are not bad. I agree that they are not looking as impressive as of some other skaters; and there are skaters that can't pass Nationals and they are doing them more beautifully. I think, that the explanation of this is that Yuna is not very flexible by nature. Probably initially she was less flexible than an average girl. It's a miracle, that she can do a Bielmann spiral, as someone already said... But she worked incredibly hard to achieve all those elements and as she does them accordingly to ISU guidelines, they should be scored high. I understand, that she still struggles while doing them, but what she can do? It's amazing how she does them with all the speed and ice coverage she gets, surpassing her initial limitations.
    I think she really deserves some credit for this...
    And personally I think that they are beautiful enough, while I admit, that some other skaters have them better, like Min Jung Kwak.
    And I think she's still working at it (as you established). But it takes a lot of flexibility to do what Yuna does now. I would probably break a limb if I tried to do that leg up by my head spiral she does for the last one. I'm cringing thinking about it!

  14. #164
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    902
    Thanks formersk8er. As for the person who is sick of reading that Yu Na's spins, spirals and laybacks are bad, you are mistaken. We aren't saying they are bad, but they are very average and should be judged accordingly. Many of us feel she is overscored. I am one of them. She is not judged objectively on many of her elements because she has speed, decent footwork and jumps. She is also a solidly clean skater, rarely making mistakes. That buys her a ton of goodwill from the judges, which in my opinion has the sum effect of artificially inflating her scores. In short, they overlook alot with Yu Na that they don't overlook in other skaters. Mao and Yu Na should have been smack dab next to each other after the SP without the 5 point spread (a 1 point would have been more like it).

  15. #165
    Down With It
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    13,589
    I only have four words to add: I agree with him.

Page 11 of 35 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •