02-24-2010, 08:00 PM
Interesting that "edging" receives no GOE bullet in the spiral category. She should not get credit for this alone according to the rules. Perhaps they should add that category ALTHOUGH I think they are considering the edge a given since there is no positive mark for it but only a negative for poor edge quality.
Originally Posted by prettykeys
I think Mao's seq has a little more flow than Yu-Na's. I also think aesthetically it is more pleasing - ie has better line overall.
My bullets come out 5-4 with Mao on top - but that still comes out to +2GOE. So no difference at the end of the day.
02-24-2010, 08:03 PM
I have been following this thread and others since last night. Now that I have finally calmed down (and caught up on sleep) after all the excitement, here are my two cents:
I thought both Mao and Yuna did an amazing job. It was so refreshing to see the old Mao back! God have I have missed that Mao smile! And Yuna, what can I say? I though she was amazing as always, although a bit reserved. But who can blame her? After all the pressure and expectations, she delivered. I was so happy for her, but I expected an immediate outcry after her scores came up, and boy, did that happen.
IMHO the main problem with the "Yuna was overscored" croud (which I think intersects a lot with the "Plushy should have won" club) is that they are basing their assessment on what they think the scores "should" have been based on: Mao should have gotten more credit for the 3A, Plushy should have won because he had a quad, Mao's spins and spirals should have gotten more GOEs because they're prettier... etc. The main issue these arguments fail to acknowledge is that the scores are based on what the COP says the base values of the jumps and the criteria for + GOEs are. These are not always in agreement with what the fans think they should be, especially when those fan perceptions are heavily based on the 6.0 system. If you look at the COP requirements for high GOEs in spins and spirals you'll find that Yuna satisfies those requirements and is therefore rewarded accordingly. For example, for spirals, edge control and speed have more effect on GOEs than the beauty of the position. For spins, it's all about the centering, speed, change of edge/foot and number of different positions. Yuna is as good as Mao (if not better in some areas like speed, edging, positions held longer) as Mao. Assuming both Mao and Yuna and their coaches could read and count, it was their responsability to build up their programs to maximize points. Team Yuna did an excellent job in that regard, Team Mao did not (I seriously question TT's ability to add simple numbers).
Now that doesn't mean that the COP cannot be adjusted to reflect higher values for pretty positions, triple axels and quads, but this is not going to happen now, during the Qlympics. Changes can be made for following seasons and there are ways to go about suggesting and discussing those changes. For this season, the rules have been set. Play by them or you lose.
Where Yuna accumulates more points than Mao is in the quality of her jumps: She enters her jumps at high speed and has nice flow and positions out of them (check out that checked position out of the triple flip of you're wondering why she got more GOEs on that jump), her combo jumps are equal in height and cover almost 25 feet!! While Mao started her combo with a great 3A, her 2T barely lifted above the ice and almost screeched to a halt. Yuna's combo had 0.5 points extra in base value and she gained around 2.5 points over Mao in jump GOEs (1.5 for the combo and 1 for the flip, approximately). I think that was very fair. Add that to the 1.5 gain in PCs, which is due to Yuna's superior expression, speed, choreography and interpretation, and there you have it: 5 points.
In reality, I thought both were overscored by 1 or 2 points, but this has been happening across disciplines.
Sorry for the long post.. just had to get it off my chest. Congrats to Mao and Yuna for an outstanding job last night, although, for me, the night belonged to Joannie.
Last edited by yunasashafan; 02-24-2010 at 08:18 PM.
02-24-2010, 08:07 PM
I think the base value for quad and 3A is already high enough. (They increased the base values maybe 2 seasons ago?) However, I agree that combination jump score shouldn't be merely the sum of each jumps. Everybody knows doing 3Lz+3T is much more difficult than just doing them seperately. I don't have clear idea how to adjust them though.
As for Yuna's spins and spirals being not good, sorry, I find it ridiculous.
Here is NBC's Yuna and Mao head-to-head video.
Yuna's spins are obviously faster than Mao's here in this particular competition and their positions are just about the same. So many people complain about Yuna's leg position on layback spin and praise Mao's position at the same time. It puzzles me because it's not like Mao herself has total turn out and toe point either. When it comes to back position, actually Yuna is better. See for yourself. The only position that Mao is superior to Yuna is Biellmann in my opinion. I think Caroline, Mirai and Alissa are heavenly layback spinners but Mao? Nah.
And about spirals, I think they are both great. Having nice position is a wow factor on TV, but great speed and ice coverage is also a wow factor in the arena. (Believe me, it really is. )
02-24-2010, 08:09 PM
1) good flow, energy and execution
Originally Posted by edge31
2) good speed during sequence
3) good body line and full extension
4) minimal delay between spiral positions
5) good flexibility
6) creativity and originality
7) ability to attain positions and variations quickly and effortlessly
8) element matched to the musical structure
I'm pretty sure edging is part of the first bullet in terms of "execution", and that bullet is one that is credited to YuNa.
02-24-2010, 08:11 PM
I am not a Yu Na fan. I find her to be a cold, emotionless, full of herself skater and that is very off-putting to me. But she skated the complete package last night and deserved 1st placement. That is not to say that she has first rate spins, spirals and laybacks-she doesn't. But overall she was the best. I also agree with Stojko that Mao's triple axel combination has too low a point value. I have seen Mao do much better in the PCS area. Yu Na had her beat in PCS last night. The one person who was totally underscored was Mirai. I was thrilled for Joannie and I am praying for a great skate for her tomorrow night. My heart is with Joannie and if she could win the gold, I would be beyond ecstatic.
02-24-2010, 08:58 PM
Elvis opposes another result???
How shocking and unprecedented!!!
While I do agree that the harder jumps should have higher base points than what the current system offers, he should really stop basing the entire performance on one or two jumps.
It's getting way too annoying.
02-24-2010, 09:17 PM
Bona Fide Member
Originally Posted by sleepyjl
02-24-2010, 09:24 PM