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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #211
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    Elvis had the right to express his opinion on the men, but now I agree he is taking it too far. There's no need for him to speak up about the ladies' event before it's even finished. There isn't even a controversy yet. He doesn't need to get involved in this one.

  2. #212
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    Maybe he wants to get people's attention by raising a controversy. As he may have wished, I got to know who Stojko is. Good Job, Stojko!

  3. #213
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    There are base values for the combo and it is the sum of the two jumps. If Mao got the correct sum, then there is nothing to debate. Check the protocols.
    3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
    3Z=6.8 + 6.8 sums up go 13.6

    I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3Z, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.
    You confuse and bewilder me.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by usethis View Post
    3) Applies to neither (?) --> Honestly I have no idea what this one means
    On Youtube, I saw Yu-Na's LP skate at TEB (CBC commentary). The commentators said that her second triple lutz was "beautiful--and delayed."

  5. #215
    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usethis View Post
    Thank you! I didn't know how GOEs were awarded before. Now that I've learned of it;

    1) Applies to neither (Ms. Kim or Ms. Asada)
    2) Applies to both
    3) Applies to neither (?) --> Honestly I have no idea what this one means
    4) Advantage Ms. Kim
    5) Applies to neither or both
    6) Advantage Ms. Kim
    7) Advantage Ms. Kim
    8) Applies to both

    It makes sense now why Ms. Kim racks up more GOEs (especially +2 on 3Lz/3T) from her jumps.
    1) applies to both... unexpected entry could be like doing an Ina Bauer or spread eagle before the jump, even if there is a moment of preparation to get into the proper entry position for the jump... so say Yu-Na's Ina Bauer into her 2A+3T would be a variation on entry
    2) is obvious, some jumps must be entered a certain way, 3-turn, etc.
    3)varied position in the air could apply to Mao (raising one arm on the 2T on her 3A+2T), the raising of the one arm is a variation on the traditional position of the arms during the jump... a male skater made it very popular to have the one arm up... it makes the jump more difficult, because it is harder to generate the spin with the torso. Another example would be delaying the rotation (ie. not rotating the jump immediately upon take off), although this really is only normally seen on the axel... there even is a variation called the "delayed axel" (although not recognized by the CoP) where the skater does not rotate until the very end of the jump right before landing.
    4)both have good height and ice coverage (Mao's 3A has excellet height and ice coverage) and Yu-Na' 3Lz+3T is fantastic.
    5)Mao has a better extension exiting her jumps... but both have creative exits on some (an example: Sasha would often lift her leg into a split after some jumps)

    The rest is pretty self-explanatory

    I saw someone mentioning spiral sequences and extensions and Yu-Na Kim's body type frail-ish or willowy body-type hindering that. I'm naturally flexible, but I've skated with others who or not... there is no reason that you can't have great extension with enough training, but skaters are earning +GOE's without it, so why bother? It takes A LOT of strength to hold your leg up (no catch-foot) and definitely wears you out. Try putting a 5lb wrap around weight on your ankle, lifting your leg back and see how fantastic it feels. Even if you are flexible, it takes a LOT of time to build up the strength (paticularly in the lower back, abs, hamstrings, gluts) to lift the leg higher. Just because you can do a split or are flexible doesn't mean that you can do it free standing (like in a spiral sequence). In Yu-Na's case, her flow, speed and ice coverage on her spiral grant her enough +GOEs so there really is no point in putting in tons of extra strength straining to be able to get the added extension... not to mention that by putting that added extension in, all she will be doing is tiring her muscles out even more, so it will wind up taking away from the quality of other elements (ie. jumps). In the end, the extra time to get it and the chance that it tires her out to the point where she won't get as high or as many +GOEs on other elements isn't worth it... but is it impossible for her to have that extension if she wanted it? No.

  6. #216
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsuhs View Post
    I'm not even commenting on Gedevanishvili's + 0.20 GOE on that 2A done out of the spiral. Who cares, right?
    Yeah, I've not seen Gedevanishvili's performance, but it looks like she was thrown under the bus a little. She landed 3Lz and 3Toe-3Toe, yes?

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren View Post
    It makes complete sense that she would go to Mr.Triple Axel for this. I suppose before he became her coach certain people have been asking why, if she was a jumping phenom, couldn't she land 3As like Mao? I am glad she listened to Brian and trained more wisely (i.e. focusing on her strengths). I am happy that he and David Wilson have helped Yu-Na find happiness in skating again.
    She'd been suffering from back, hip & knee injuries. That's why. The pain was severe enough to make her consider giving up before she made the sr debut.
    Last edited by Nadia01; 02-25-2010 at 06:36 AM.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    She landed 3Lz and 3Toe-3Toe, yes?
    Yes she did.
    She skated well. Wagner turns out to be a really good choice for her.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethissoawesome View Post
    4)both have good height and ice coverage (Mao's 3A has excellet height and ice coverage) and Yu-Na' 3Lz+3T is fantastic.
    OMG!
    Do you mean Yu-na's 2A and Mao's 3A
    have a similar ice coverage ? I can't understand what ICE COVERAGE is which you said.

    First photo made from this one Caution Swap!
    Last edited by adoreyuna; 02-25-2010 at 07:27 AM. Reason: to add motion photos

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    She's always needed the 3ax because most of the time she doesn't have enough other triples that she can count on. I recall that at various times her toeloop, salchow, lutz and loop have all been problematic for different reasons. that's a _lot_ of nemesis jumps even if they usually aren't problems at the same time.
    That's not true! Her loop is her other most consistent jump. I don't think she has a big problem with her salchow, because the few times she did do it, she got it ratified. The only nemeisis she has is her lutz, but she only left it out for this season. I agree with those who said that the 3A is a signature jump for Mao because she's been using it since junior days, when she had no problem with her jumps and certainly didn't need it. I think those who criticize Mao for leaving out jumps are being unfair (especially in regards to the lutz). Mao has been doing her lutz all the time prior to this season and people always criticize her for flutzing even after she corrected her edge. Now, she takes it out, some people continue to criticize her for not doing it:sheesh:
    Last edited by miki88; 02-25-2010 at 08:05 AM.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    That's not true! Her loop is her other most consistent jump. I don't think she has a big problem with her salchow, because the few times she did do it, she got it ratified. The only nemeisis she has is her lutz, but she only left it out for this season. I agree with those who said that the 3A is a signature jump for Mao because she's been using it since junior days, when she had no problem with her jumps and certainly didn't need it.
    Her loop is her most consistent jump. It's her absolute money, much more consistent than her 3A. That said, I think it was downgraded as recently as 4CC. Still, though.

    No salchow because she doesn't like it, and her lutz has real problems.
    Last edited by Marrymeyunakim; 02-25-2010 at 08:16 AM.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrymeyunakim View Post
    Her loop is her most consistent jump. It's her absolute money, much more consistent with her 3A. That said, I think it was downgraded as recently as 4CC. Still, though.

    No salchow because she doesn't like it, and her lutz has real problems.
    I always didn't get why Mao rather struggle with her lutz than just do the sal. I guess because sal is worth less or she's just deciding based on her emotions. I admit some of her decisions tend to be irrational.

  13. #223
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    You confuse and bewilder me.
    This has long since been admitted an error on my part and corrected some time ago.
    So don't be bewildered, be wild again

  14. #224
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    Does Elvis have a point? Yes, much to my dismay. Is his narrow minded view of figure skating a good thing? No.

    The plus side: I believe Blades of Passion has mentioned this before, but doing a combo is harder than doing the two jumps. Doing a combo with a harder jump is harder than with an easier jump (ie , 3Lz+3toe > 3toe+3toe), and it makes sense that there is an additional reward beyond the simple base values (and in an lp, the reward comes from having more jump options to maximize points). I can imagine a multiplier of say 1.1 to the harder jump to give credit for the risk.

    But the rest of his point just falls apart. Lets just focus on the jumps: he ignores quality. He ignores other elements. He ignores layout. He ignores choreography. Essentially, he ignores the sport. It's remarkably narrow minded, and yes - suggests that he needs to get over himself before he makes a mockery of his two OSM and three World championships. People will start forgetting what a remarkable competitor he was.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Ant? How can you say 3A-2T is easier than 3-3 when many (lady) skaters have done the latter and a tiny handful the former?
    Because a 3/3 is harder than a 3/2. While the triple axel is a special jump in and of itself it is still "only" a triple jump - with a point value that was recently increased because people didn't think it was worth enough, so it is worth what? 2.5 points more than a triple lutz. That is a large increase. Even more so when you conisder that the differential between every other type of triple jump is only 0.5 points. So the point differential is already five time that of the differences between the rest of the other triples.

    Tell me this - what do you think is more difficult a 3Lz+2T or a 3F+3T? Or this - a 3F+2T or a 3Lp+3T? I think the 3/3 is harder everytime, so why is the 3A any different - it is the next hardest triple but the 2T is throw away. That was the main point of my post . Or maybe conisder this - a 4T+2T combination compared to a 3A+3T combination? That to me is cut and dry as well - the 3/3 is more difficult than the 4/2.

    My main frustration in listening to the arguments is that the scale of values has not changed in what? 18 months? 2 years? The triple axel (and quad's) value has increased and there hasn't been some surprise change all of a sudden. Everyone knows what things are worth on paper. Everyone knows (though barely anyone agrees) that COP does not treat combinations as more difficult than the jumps done individually, so with this in mind, looking at COP who in this example has done more content if the following jumps are executed in single passes:

    Skater A: 3A, 3F, 2A, 2T
    Skater B: 3Lz, 3F, 2A, 3T

    Two triples to three is easy to spot. The first skater did the hardest triple in the book, together with the third hardest triple, the hardest double and the easiest double. The second skater did the second and third hardest triples in the book, the easiest triple and the hardest double. That's how COP scores it.

    But even if you don't agree with the scoring of combination (which I don't) and you think the system should be tweaked (which I do) I still don't think you end up with skater A beating skater B because everybody knows that the second (and third) jumps in combinations are more difficult comparatively than the first. So if you use a system like e.g. gkelly has sugested (which i personally like) where the first jump in a combo is given a 0.1 multiplier and the second jump is given a 0.2 multiplier, then you still end up with skater B getting more points because doing the same jump with a whole revolution more as the second jump is worth more than doing the first jump with half a revolution extra.


    And as for tacking on the 2T - correct me if I'm wrong since I"m not a technical person, but aren't skaters often omitting to tack it on because they lack speed or the first jump wasn't landed quite right? I don't think it's to be minimized... esp. after a 3A!
    No i don't think skaters are omitting 2Ts at all. Some skaters notorisouly forget or don't maximuise points by putting 2T on the end of 3/2s and 3/3 combinations. But i have seen a whole host of downright fugly 2Ts and 2Lps on the end of 3 jumps combos just because they must. I've seen skaters (like Kevin VDPs Oly LP) where the skater has to put the double toe on the back of the triple or risk losing is as a phantom SEQ because of Zayak violations so despite a seriously flawed triple they easily tacked the double (and in Kevni's case a triple!) toe onto the end of the combination.

    I think people are up in arms about the results of Mao and Yuna (which was always going to happen). To have a sensible debate about the way the elements are scored we need to not personalise it with the skaters. If the scale of values is to remain the same for men and women I don't see how you can make a 3A/2T cmobination worth more than a 3Lz/3T combination without making the men's competition regress even further becuase the message is - hey guys 3a/2s or 4T/2s are worth more than 3/3s or 3A/3s and that to me just feels wrong. I think people want to change the rules because their favourite isn't in the lead, and that is not a good reason to change the rules.

    I think Stojko is helping to focus a debate, so why the problem with his speaking up? He seems to enjoy being in the thick of controversy. Not every former champion would be up for that.
    I have no problem with stojko speaking up as long as he doesn't misrepresent facts to present his skewed argument. Saying that a triple lutz is worth more than a triple axel, is an out and out lie. Saying that a triple lutz combination is worth more points than a triple axel combination is misleading because it could be a 3Lz+4T combination and a 3A+1T combination...in which case DUH! Missing out facts like - the reason the combiantion scored more was because the difference between a 3 Lutz and a 3 Axel is 2.5 points, but the difference between a double toe and a triple toe is 3 points (I know i've got the points wrong because i haven't looke it up but for the purposes of making the point the actual point difference doesn't matter) so overall the system worksa it out as more valuable does many things. It explains the reality of what happened to the lesser informed public, he coudl even go one better and say, not only that but the system rewords X,y, and z in the GOE which is why one combination got 2 extra GOE points to only 0.60 extra points for the other. But it also then gives a good platform, having stated the facts correctly to go on to say , and that is why i disagree with the way the system works, i would prefer to see A,b, and c changes effect to achieve x, y and z outcomes. And from there we can debate it!

    Ant
    Last edited by antmanb; 02-25-2010 at 09:48 AM.

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