Stojko opposes the ladies result

[Bennett]

The plus side: I believe Blades of Passion has mentioned this before, but doing a combo is harder than doing the two jumps. Doing a combo with a harder jump is harder than with an easier jump (ie , 3Lz+3toe > 3toe+3toe), and it makes sense that there is an additional reward beyond the simple base values.

True.

[antmanb]

Well you did say the judges do not compare skaters to others, or even the skater to themselves right?

No i didn't - go back and read my post i never made that statement.

So people can't make some opinions about the judging unless they read the whole manuel of rules?

Of cours eyou can but if you don't know the rules how can you surmise that they are being applied correctly or incorrectly?

BTW I said the judges MIGHT not they were definitely judging that way or anything. If you don't like my opinion, you can just ignore~~~but I and others have the right to make one right?

Of course you can post your opinions, don't i have the right to post why i disagree? You can always ignore my opinions if they bother you that much

Ant

[rallycairn]

Just want to say that I now feel I stand completely and totally corrected about raising the value of the 3a for ladies. Given how much more it is already worth than the 3lutz, and how that difference is exponentially so much greater than the difference between all the rest of the jumps, it's clear that the system already values it hugely. Looks like the problem is that the scoring of combos may not correctly reflect their difficulty, and perhaps rulemakers should re-evaluate how the zayak rule plays into combos, double vs. triple axels, etc. Clearly I need to review my CoP knowledge ~ well, actually, that is if I care enough and I find that kinda hard these days, sadly ... but this thread has been very informative!

[Love_Skate]

Here is a little hint of how Kwan thinks about this issue.

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...ichelle-kwan/1

How psychologically defeating is it to land a big jump like the triple axel and still place second?

"Well, that's competition. Sometimes your best isn't good enough. … It's all what the judges are looking for, and apparently (Kim) is what the judges are looking for when it comes to jump quality and spin quality and her edges and all that,'' Kwan said.

[Fan123]

She did pursue to have it. That's how she met Orser. She went to him to learn 3A at first.
I even watched a video clip that showed her practicing it. She faltered at the end but she almost made it.
I heard that it was Orser who recommended her to give up on 3A.
I guess it's because she was already struggling with injuries and it seemed too risky to learn a new jump for her body.
But I still think she would've made it if she didn't have other choices but to make it.

I think the competition between Mao and Yuna have pushed and helped each other and the skating world.
The ladies' filed would have become much less interesting without them.

Thanks to you, Ant, and others for this passionate and informative discussion. As mentioned, kudos to Team Kim to have studied the point system so well as how it pertains to Kim's ability. No doubt that many of her jump GOEs were better in the short program. I hope the officials would seriously consider raising the base value of the 3As and quads more in the future. As a fan, it is just my obvesrvation that 3/3s are more common than 3As and quads. We are in for a big treat tonight; can't wait!

[Love_Skate]

I hope the officials would seriously consider raising the base value of the 3As and quads more in the future. As a fan, it is just my obvesrvation that 3/3s are more common than 3As and quads. We are in for a big treat tonight; can't wait!

As you might know, the base value of 3A is increased very recently. Nevertheless, if it must be increased again, upto what or until when? Until 3A+2T gets higher points than 3Lz+3T? I am afraid it will make a massive conspiracy theory.

[stella0321]

I think it's a delicate balancing act, but as I have already said, if Mao takes silver despite having performed solidly with three triple-axels, against Yuna's great performance where her double-axels will have played a determining role, then this has got to raise some questions about the present system.


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seriously...? double-axles plays a determing role? lol

In my opinion, Yuna should have received higher score, in light of the fact the presentation scores is only slightly higher than that of Mao's..

Yuna's textbook Jumps, not rotating her head about half rotation more (look at the snap shot photos of Mao's jump ) to make triple rotation ( I don't think she does it to cheat intentionally but I guess it became habitual by practicing in such way for long time), should be rewarded accordingly with high marks.

Well, but I have to say..she does play smart ..knowing the way to get high scores under current scoring system, yet there were many cases she didn't receive her well-deserved score ( again, in my opinion)

Also, to my eyes, Joannie Rochette should have marked higher... ...well, I was just touched to see her performance....and she even executed all elements in a wonderful manner....

[Fan123]

As you might know, the base value of 3A is increased very recently. Nevertheless, if it must be increased again, upto what or until when? Until 3A+2T gets higher points than 3Lz+3T? I am afraid it will make a massive conspiracy theory.

I just realized by reading this thread that the BV of the 3A was increased recently. Regarding any conspiracy theory...honestly, my suggestion as a fan to raise it has nothing to do with Kim or Asada. The 3A (and the quad) is so rare among the ladies, and I think the BV disparity between the standard lutz, flip, loop, salchow, and toe should have been much greater pre Kim vs Asada.

[dlgpffps]

4)both have good height and ice coverage (Mao's 3A has excellet height and ice coverage) and Yu-Na' 3Lz+3T is fantastic.

There were pages of debate on this (I think it's in the "scientific analysis of Mao's 3A"). Mao has great height, but little ice coverage. The difference is evident when watched live (as Scott goes on and on about), but it's also clear in videos. Yu-na covers a massive 25 feet in her 3Lz-3T (NYT). I don't have an exact number for Mao, but she's the type of skater who jumps and executes the element through quick rotations. Yu-na, she launches into the jump with great speed, uses the torque from the preparation and then translates that into jumps. The difference is also evident in how the two girls prepared for the Olympics. Yu-na, in recent years, focused on increasing her muscle power, strengthening her general physique, thus, increasing the speed and strength with which she enters a jump, so that she has now lost that ethereal quality for an image of improved athleticism (i.e. she gained weight). Mao, after her Grand Prix season, underwent a drastic diet in order to reduce her body fat percentage to 7% and improve her chances of nailing that 3A by making faster rotations easier. Yu-na has slower rotations, but completes her jumps by making use of the amazing ice she covers (hence, commentators say she jumps like a man). We're talking about two very different approaches to jumping, which result in different degrees of ice coverage. I'm not saying one's better than the other, but the checkpoint asks for both qualities, so, no, Mao does not get this point.

3)varied position in the air could apply to Mao (raising one arm on the 2T on her 3A+2T).

Mao did not raise her arm on the 2T (the Tano Jump). I checked just in case I had it wrong That point goes to neither, I believe.

[hurrah]

I think it's a delicate balancing act, but as I have already said, if Mao takes silver despite having performed solidly with three triple-axels, against Yuna's great performance where her double-axels will have played a determining role, then this has got to raise some questions about the present system.


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seriously...? double-axles plays a determing role? lol

The statement was made in regard to the long program that will be performed today. In it, Yuna will include three double axels, two of which are combinations. One combination, the 2axel-3toe loop, is, I think, is perfectly fine to execute as an indicate of the skater's ability, and if she executes it, she will deserve the points she garners for it. The other combination, however, 2axel-2toe loop-2loop, is another kettle of fish altogether. It's an easy combo for which she gets 6.9 brownie points. If you consider the fact that Mao gets 9.5 points for doing 3axel-2toe loop, the scoring system is, how can I put it, really insensitive to what the skaters are actually executing. Yuna really should not be allowed to garner so many points so easily, and she should be forced to attempt a 3loop instead.

[Mafke]

That's not true! Her loop is her other most consistent jump. I don't think she has a big problem with her salchow, because the few times she did do it, she got it ratified. The only nemeisis she has is her lutz, but she only left it out for this season. I agree with those who said that the 3A is a signature jump for Mao because she's been using it since junior days, when she had no problem with her jumps and certainly didn't need it. I think those who criticize Mao for leaving out jumps are being unfair (especially in regards to the lutz). Mao has been doing her lutz all the time prior to this season and people always criticize her for flutzing even after she corrected her edge. Now, she takes it out, some people continue to criticize her for not doing it:sheesh:

I seem to recall that she went through a phase where she was trying/hoping to land a quad loop and that was messing up her timing on the triple. I'm not so sure about the salchow, but it seems she's left it out a lot. And AFAICT she never fixed the flutz which is why she's leaving it out now. That is her flutz was pretty consistent but she was not so consistent with the lutz (I'd go ahead and flutz and take the edge hit and I'm not sure why she doesn't just do that).

[Love_Skate]

I just realized by reading this thread that the BV of the 3A was increased recently. Regarding any conspiracy theory...honestly, my suggestion as a fan to raise it has nothing to do with Kim or Asada. The 3A (and the quad) is so rare among the ladies, and I think the BV disparity between the standard lutz, flip, loop, salchow, and toe should have been much greater pre Kim vs Asada.

The base values of the triple jumps are as follow:
3A(8.2) 3Lz(6.0) 3F(5.5) 3Lo(5.0) 3S(4.5) 3T(4.0)
The point gap between two jumps is 0.5 except for 3A, which is higher than 3Lz by 2.2, more than FOUR times higher point gaps than others.
Do you think it is not enough? Then, what points will be satisfactory for 3A? I think it is until when the fans who support skaters executing 3A(or quad) are satisfied.

[Fan123]

There were pages of debate on this (I think it's in the "scientific analysis of Mao's 3A"). Mao has great height, but little ice coverage. The difference is evident when watched live (as Scott goes on and on about), but it's also clear in videos. Yu-na covers a massive 25 feet in her 3Lz-3T (NYT). I don't have an exact number for Mao, but she's the type of skater who jumps and executes the element through quick rotations. Yu-na, she launches into the jump with great speed, uses the torque from the preparation and then translates that into jumps.

If we are talking about Asada's 3A vs Kim's 3Lz, you're correct. However, from a fan's point of view, the 3A usually covers less distance because it's an edge jump with no toe-pick to propel the skater. The 3Lz jump does, especially when it requires the skater to have long backward glide into the jump...to gain more momentum in time for the take-off. The same seems to be true for the loop and salchow vs the flip and toe. This is just my obvservation of course as a fan, not a jump expert by any means. Perhaps others want to chime in?

[Fan123]

The base values of the triple jumps are as follow:
3A(8.2) 3Lz(6.0) 3F(5.5) 3Lo(5.0) 3S(4.5) 3T(4.0)
The point gap between two jumps is 0.5 except for 3A, which is higher than 3Lz by 2.2, more than FOUR times higher point gaps than others.
Do you think it is not enough? Then, what points will be satisfactory for 3A? I think it is until when the fans who support skaters executing 3A(or quad) are satisfied.

Thanks for letting me know of the BV for each 3 jumps. To be honest, I'm quite shocked that the 3A is only worth 2.2 higher than the 3Lz. To me, it should be worth 4.0 points. I'm not in favor of increasing it each time another "conspiracy" comes along either. Do you know the original BV of the 3A and its increased pattern value?

[dlgpffps]

However, from a fan's point of view, the 3A usually covers less distance because it's an edge jump with no toe-pick to propel the skater. The 3Lz jump does, especially when it requires the skater to have long backward glide into the jump...to gain more momentum in time for the take-off. The same seems to be true for the loop and salchow vs the flip and toe.

Yes, very good point, but I was indeed discussing the 3A-2T and 3Lz-3T. Sorry, I didn't make that clear. I'll return with further analysis on the jumps, but Mao's 3F seemed to cover less ice than Yu-na's. There's no clear way of determining. Maybe I can use the boards and calculate the camera angle and stuff... Well, I might not even get to it... Maybe someone else can?