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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    The statement was made in regard to the long program that will be performed today. In it, Yuna will include three double axels, two of which are combinations. One combination, the 2axel-3toe loop, is, I think, is perfectly fine to execute as an indicate of the skater's ability, and if she executes it, she will deserve the points she garners for it. The other combination, however, 2axel-2toe loop-2loop, is another kettle of fish altogether. It's an easy combo for which she gets 6.9 brownie points. If you consider the fact that Mao gets 9.5 points for doing 3axel-2toe loop, the scoring system is, how can I put it, really insensitive to what the skaters are actually executing. Yuna really should not be allowed to garner so many points so easily, and she should be forced to attempt a 3loop instead.
    I fail to see how 6.3 points for a three-jump combo, which is more than three points less than Mao's two-jump combo, is unreasonable. The +GOE is where Yuna garners points, from going into the 2A from an ina bauer/spread eagle (which I have actually not seen any other skaters do so far. They may sometimes execute an ina bauer/spread eagle before a 2A, but I have never seen a skater link the two elements directly; they always cross over).
    Moreover, I am frankly sick and tired of the Yuna-has-three-double-axels whinging. For chrissakes, Mao has three double loops (3F-2L and 3F-2L-2L) in her free skate, but I haven't seen anyone go on about that, or the fact that she has neither a lutz or a salchow.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmelanie View Post
    I fail to see how 6.3 points for a three-jump combo, which is more than three points less than Mao's two-jump combo, is unreasonable. The +GOE is where Yuna garners points, from going into the 2A from an ina bauer/spread eagle (which I have actually not seen any other skaters do so far. They may sometimes execute an ina bauer/spread eagle before a 2A, but I have never seen a skater link the two elements directly; they always cross over).
    Moreover, I am frankly sick and tired of the Yuna-has-three-double-axels whinging. For chrissakes, Mao has three double loops (3F-2L and 3F-2L-2L) in her free skate, but I haven't seen anyone go on about that, or the fact that she has neither a lutz or a salchow.
    It is unreasonable because she gets to avoid doing her nemesis jump and still gets 6.9 points for doing an easy combo. I believe doing two double jumps in a row should be prohibited altogether---it is okay when a double is done after a triple because adding a double after a difficult triple jump indicates how well the triple jump was executed. Mao actually doesn't need a salchow to max out her jump layout because she does a triple axel. She would hugely benefit for being able to do triple lutz. After the Olympics, she will have to master it enough to put it in program with confidence because this will be the only way she'll have a chance of beating Yuna, given the current scoring system.
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-25-2010 at 11:48 AM.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    It is unreasonable because she gets to avoid doing her nemesis jump and still gets 6.9 points for doing an easy combo. I believe doing two double jumps in a row should be prohibited altogether---it is okay when a double is done after a triple because adding a double after a difficult triple jump indicates how well the triple jump was executed. Mao actually doesn't need a salchow to max out her jump layout because she does a triple axel. She would hugely benefit for being able to do triple lutz. After the Olympics, she will have to master it because this will be the only way she'll have a chance of beating Yuna, given the current scoring system.
    That nemsis jump also caused Yu-na major injury, so are you saying she should sacrifice her physical well-being (both in the short-term and long-term) so she can conquer that jump? I don't think it's worth it.
    And 6.9 for that combo doesn't seem to be a lot, especially when you take each jump and its base value. It's just the sum of the three jumps, that's all. We already established that Mao's base value is already higher, so why the fuss?

  4. #244
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    Well, the rules are the same for all skaters. If, say, Cynthia Phaneuf wants to get 6.9 points the easy way, there they are for the taking.

  5. #245
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, the rules are the same for all skaters. If, say, Cynthia Phaneuf wants to get 6.9 points the easy way, there they are for the taking.
    And also these "easy jumps" also serve as a breather. Come on, it's just not realistic to do 3-3 and hard jumps for the entire 4 minutes, espeially with all the other stuff you have to do during those 4 minutes.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    That nemsis jump also caused Yu-na major injury, so are you saying she should sacrifice her physical well-being (both in the short-term and long-term) so she can conquer that jump? I don't think it's worth it.
    And 6.9 for that combo doesn't seem to be a lot, especially when you take each jump and its base value. It's just the sum of the three jumps, that's all. We already established that Mao's base value is already higher, so why the fuss?
    You know, what all this debate over Asada vs Kim...I'm actually learning a lot from you guys. I love both of these skaters, and I sincerely hope whatever the outcome will be...we should all be happy as long they are happy with how they did. It will be an exciting night of skating for sure. Extra props for Rochette!

  7. #247
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    That nemsis jump also caused Yu-na major injury, so are you saying she should sacrifice her physical well-being (both in the short-term and long-term) so she can conquer that jump?
    That's a very sentimental perspective that should not hold up in determining who's the winner in a competative sports.

    Did anyone ever suggest that Plushenko should be awarded gold because he managed to do a quad despite having been seriously injured. Did anyone ever suggest that Joubert should have been cut some slack because he got hurt right before the Olympics?

    Yuna and all other skaters should be judged on their athletic abilities. If she gets hurt practicing her nemesis jump, then that just means she doesn't have the physical ability to be deemed a top figure skater.
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-25-2010 at 11:58 AM.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, the rules are the same for all skaters. If, say, Cynthia Phaneuf wants to get 6.9 points the easy way, there they are for the taking.
    Cynthia Phaneuf, also, should not be allowed to garner easy points that way. Double-double combos should not be allowed, particularly when more difficult combos are not rewarded for their difficulty (as of now).

  9. #249
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    And also these "easy jumps" also serve as a breather. Come on, it's just not realistic to do 3-3 and hard jumps for the entire 4 minutes, espeially with all the other stuff you have to do during those 4 minutes.
    Awarding a jump combo for being a 'breather' is funny.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    If she gets hurt practicing her nemesis jump, then that just means she doesn't have the physical ability to be deemed a top figure skater.
    OK one question. Are you a Mao fan? :sheesh:
    OK well, I'll reword that. Are you a Mao bot? Fans don't rabidly attack another skater, blindly protect their favorite and dismiss the logical reasoning of other fans. They appreciate the strengths in light of the flaws and can engage in reasonable debate. I don't think I'll ever be able to explain the rules well enough for you. Nor will I ever be able to persuade you that both Mao and Yu-na are great skaters. I call it a day. When you want to discuss the CoP and the qualities of the actual skating, you can always call me back

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    It is unreasonable because she gets to avoid doing her nemesis jump and still gets 6.9 points for doing an easy combo. I believe doing two double jumps in a row should be prohibited altogether---it is okay when a double is done after a triple because adding a double after a difficult triple jump indicates how well the triple jump was executed.
    I see your point, and I agree to a certain extent, but I don't think two double jumps in combo are necessarily easy. At Japanese nationals, both of Mao's double loops in her 3F-2L-2L were DGed - at Japanese Nationals!! The comp where they were so eager to give Mao points she got 135 in the FS!
    Your claim that a double after a triple indicates how well the triple was executed also seems to be a bit of an over-generalization; in Mao's case the 2T tacked on after her 3A is kind of a joke, it's an afterthought of a jump. I'd rather see her execute a single 3A well rather than see her add on a half-assed 2T that's barely 1 1/2 rotations (again, DGed at Japan Nationals) just to prove she can.

    I guess my primary peeve is the disparity between principle and execution. It's easy to say that a three double-jump combo should be prohibited, but looking at what how these two skaters execute combos, I'd rather see a finely executed 2A-2T-2L (with intricate transitions and 'tano) than a 3F-2L-2L where both 2Ls are DGed.

  12. #252
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    OK one question. Are you a Mao fan? :sheesh:
    OK well, I'll reword that. Are you a Mao bot? Fans don't rabidly attack another skater, blindly protect their favorite and dismiss the logical reasoning of other fans. They appreciate the strengths in light of the flaws and can engage in reasonable debate. I don't think I'll ever be able to explain the rules well enough for you. Nor will I ever be able to persuade you that both Mao and Yu-na are great skaters. I call it a day. When you want to discuss the CoP and the qualities of the actual skating, you can always call me back
    I am a Mao fan. But please give me some credit and recognize that I am making a point that many other posters are making. I am not making an attack on Yuna. I am criticizing a scoring sytem that is very biased. I think both Mao and Yuna are great skaters. Yuna is not better than Mao to the extent that the scoring system makes out to be.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    It is unreasonable because she gets to avoid doing her nemesis jump and still gets 6.9 points for doing an easy combo. I believe doing two double jumps in a row should be prohibited altogether---it is okay when a double is done after a triple because adding a double after a difficult triple jump indicates how well the triple jump was executed. Mao actually doesn't need a salchow to max out her jump layout because she does a triple axel. She would hugely benefit for being able to do triple lutz. After the Olympics, she will have to master it enough to put it in program with confidence because this will be the only way she'll have a chance of beating Yuna, given the current scoring system.
    Oh I get it! *slaps head* how stupid could i be.

    Let me get this straight so that i no longer make mistakes....the whole scoring system should be changed so that your favourite skater can continue to skate exactly how she does now and win against another skater.

    It all makes sense now. But what would we do if Yuna suddenly adapted to the new scoring system, would it have to be changed again so only Mao could win?

    Or what if both Mao and Yuna falter and Joannie were to win, shoudl we re-write it again?

    I'm starting to lose my patience with all this crap..."Yuna's nemesis jump"? Cos we all know Mao doesn't have a nemesis jump right *cough*triple lutz, triple salchow*cough*.

    "Two double jumps should be allowed except after a triple jump"??? Seriously? You know that COp is used to score senior and junior events all over the world right? It's not just the podium at Olympics and worlds? God i'd hate to see how British nationals went if 2/2 combinations weren't allowed - might as well drag our ldies skaters into the street for public stonings, heaven forbid they attempt such feeble combos right?

    Why don't you just suggest the following change and be done with it - any ladies skater who's name isn't Mao cannot win? That would be a quicker way to get to what you're trying to achieve no?

    Ant (who would like nothing more than to see Mao and Yuna pull a joubert just to laugh at the bots)
    Last edited by antmanb; 02-25-2010 at 12:15 PM.

  14. #254
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Awarding a jump combo for being a 'breather' is funny.
    Would it make it happy that she get no points for the combo? Or maybe just 3 points, which would be the equivlant of just one double axel?

    That's a very sentimental perspective that should not hold up in determining who's the winner in a competative sports.

    Did anyone ever suggest that Plushenko should be awarded gold because he managed to do a quad despite having been seriously injured. Did anyone ever suggest that Joubert should have been cut some slack because he got hurt right before the Olympics?

    Yuna and all other skaters should be judged on their athletic abilities. If she gets hurt practicing her nemesis jump, then that just means she doesn't have the physical ability to be deemed a top figure skater.
    It has nothing to do with being setimental, it has to do with properly gauging what you can do. And it's not just Yu-na -- it's pretty well established that Tara Lipinski basically couldn't skate in shows shortly after she won the OGM in 1998 because of abusing her body to do 3L-3L combos. So I say that Yuna's (and her coaching team) is being smart.

  15. #255
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    Stojko opposes the ladies result

    Why am I not surprised?

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