Stojko opposes the ladies result | Page 18 | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Wow. This is a total catfight in here. Anyways, I think those who oppose rule changes saying that those who favor rule changes simply want their favorite skaters to win is just being hypocritical because obviously for some posters who oppose it they think rule changes will negatively affect their favorite skater. It's the exact same intention. :sheesh:

While that certainly might be the case with some posters it certainly isn't for me. I've said several times over and over, that this last quadrennial of ladies skaters have made my interest in the ladies evaporate completely. I'm not vested in any particualr skater at all, I enjoy some of Yuna and Moa's programmes together with some of Joannie's and also Lepisto. I watch (through fingers often!) Jenna McKorkell's to bang the home drum, but even watching those programmes I don't feel the excitement I did when Kwan and Slutskaya were competing.

To bring it back to the proposed rule changes, most people have seemed to have a knee jerk reaction to the outcome of the SP (and presumably the LP but i've not waded into that car crash yet!) and I have used not only the rules and the scale of value, but also suggestions from other posters (like gkelly) as to how the rules might be revised and given justification for them. IMO saying things like 2/2 combinations should be banned, shows a great amount of ignorance of the sport of figure skating, the way it is used, the grass roots way in which COP is being implmented in most countries. As I and many others have pointed out COP is not just used to score the podium at worlds and Olympic it is used in all levels of competition and "banning" anything is against the spirit of the cumulative scoring system that COP is. I have yet to read a single justification for the proposed rule changes (ban 2/2 jumps, increase the value of the 3A) other than the unspken "because that way Mao will win". Accusations of Kim's lead being unfair, despite it being clear in the protocls why the scores were made.

Most importantly though i wrote a fairly lengthy post explaining the changes that i thought would be sensible, without mentioning either Mao or Kim, but that seemed to get lost in the crowd because it wouldn't catapult Mao to the top :shrug:

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Well, there's a point in that.
In the SP, all ladies must do a 2A. Men can sub a 2A for a 3A if they have it. Ladies should be able, too.

If you look at the history of when the Men were allowed to do a double or triple axel - it wasn't until most of the guys were attempting triple axels that the rule change came into effect. I'm trying to think back and I'm guessing it was the 1999 season since 1998 was still the standard mens' SP of 3A+3T, 3Lz, 2A.

Similarly with the addition of the quad to the SP - that didn't come into effect until all of the final group in the Men's competition were attempting quads in their LPs.

What I don't understand is why team Mao didn't use the 3A as the solo jump in the SP. She's done it from brackets before, and even if she didn't many of the ladies fail to put steps before the required triple anyway so i doubt there would be much if any penalty. That would leave her able to go for a 3/3 combination. That's been my suggestion all along for her SP. In that regard there was nothing stopping her doing the triple axel as a solo jump.

Ant
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
OK I take back my last post about hurrah. The person meant what I thought he meant. In the Ladies LP post he wrote:

The only reason why this didn't turn out to be a judging scandal was because Yuna herself went out there and put on a performance that deserves gold. The judges were there to make sure that even if she put on a mediocre performance, she was still going to get gold.

But whatever. I'm so happy tonight that I'll forget those words were ever spoken.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I believe Yuna did her job. She performed to convincingly win her gold.
I believe the judges didn't do their job. Their apparent job is to judge fairly. But they didn't do that.
I also believe the judges did Yuna disservice. EVen without them raising her up, with the performance she gave, she would have won anyway.
They also did disservice to other skaters. It's they that train everyday and give their guts out on the ice. But this system would reduce them to mere cogs in the system.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I believe Yuna did her job. She performed to convincingly win her gold.
I believe the judges didn't do their job. Their apparent job is to judge fairly. But they didn't do that.
I also believe the judges did Yuna disservice. EVen without them raising her up, with the performance she gave, she would have won anyway.
They also did disservice to other skaters. It's they that train everyday and give their guts out on the ice. But this system would reduce them to mere cogs in the system.

We will never know what the judges would have done if Yuna didn't skate clean and I think it's a total waste of time to suppose what could have been.
The judges were giving PBs left and right last night and pretty much everyone in the top 11 did great skates with no falls, so I don't know why you feel the judges were doing a disserve to other skaters. And I didn't see cogs - I saw people who rose the occasion.

There are plenty of non-skating fans that were amazed by the performances last night and I doubt anyone is thinking for a moment about the judging.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
...I doubt anyone is thiking for a moment about the judging.

If you analyze the content of this very forum, majority of what's being thought about involves judging issues. The great thing about CoP is that it (has to) provide data (protocols) so that quite intricate and sophisticated discussions on judging can be carried out even by those who are non-specialists of skating.
 
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nddandy

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Well, I do think that Yuna was slighly overmarked and Mao was slightly undermarked, even without taking into account that the triple-axel is way too underrated under CoP.

It will be interesting what the results will be after the LP. If both girls skate without major mistakes in the LP, and Mao ends up with a silver, Mao will have failed to have become a Olympic gold medalist after successfully doing THREE triple-axels against someone who is an awesome skater but nevertheless racks up enough points to win by doing three double-axels in her long program.

This will be sure proof that the present scoring system is out of whack.

Can you expalin Mao's super high 130's mark please? with single toe loop and downgraded flip and underserving 2nd pre-rotated triple axel and under rotated double toe loop? Seriously..
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Can you expalin Mao's super high 130's mark please? with single toe loop and downgraded flip and underserving 2nd pre-rotated triple axel and under rotated double toe loop? Seriously..

IMAO. All the scores were inflated. But there was nothing wrong with her axel combo. :sheesh:
 

Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
IMAO. All the scores were inflated. But there was nothing wrong with her axel combo. :sheesh:

I don't mind that the scores were inflated...it's more about the margin or differential between all the skaters. Even Kim and Orser were surprised at the huge 150 point. Who on this board was not surprised?
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I don't mind that the scores were inflated...it's more about the margin or differential between all the skaters. Even Kim and Orser were surprised at the huge 150 point. Who on this board was not surprised?

Yes I agree the gap was too big. I was just replying to the poster who said that Mao shouldn't get that score for her performance.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Can you expalin Mao's super high 130's mark please? with single toe loop and downgraded flip and underserving 2nd pre-rotated triple axel and under rotated double toe loop? Seriously..

Well, I think all the scores were inflated, though certainly not to the extent that Yuna was. But fyi, besides the jump elements you mentioned, she also did a 3A, 3F+2L, 3L and 2A. So I think she did do some things to garner points.
 
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Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Well, I think all the scores were inflated, though certainly not to the extent that Yuna was. But fyi, besides the jump elements you mentioned, she also did a 3A, 3F+2L, 3L and 2A. So I think she did do some things to garner points.

Just FYI, Kim's quote after her performance, "I don't know...I was guessing it was going to be 130 or 140, but it was so high, so I was a surprised." Before the scores came up, I thought in the 130 range as well. I blame the judges, not certainly Kim.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
If you analyze the content of this very forum, majority of what's being thought about involves judging issues. The great thing about CoP is that it (has to) provide data (protocols) so that quite intricate and sophisticated discussions on judging can be carried out even by those who are non-specialists of skating.

Probably what I should have said "many" people aren't thinking about the judging. Obviously the hard-core folks in this forum (including myself-- check all the STATS posts I've put up) will look the judging.. but the response I'm getting from people from my office (who don't watch skating that often) is "Yuna was great...she's amazing. etc, etc" and not one word about COP or that they didnt' agree with the marks or anything about that.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Just FYI, Kim's quote after her performance, "I don't know...I was guessing it was going to be 130 or 140, but it was so high, so I was a surprised." Before the scores came up, I thought in the 130 range as well.

Yeah. I saw that clip as well. She's a good sport for acknowledging (in a circumvent way, but then, how else?) that the scoring was inexplicably skewed.

I was just thinking that if anything is going to make CoP work as it claims to, it will be things like protocol sheets, and also, YouTube! All the performances are there on YouTube to be scrutinized as many times as is desired.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Probably what I should have said "many" people aren't thinking about the judging. Obviously the hard-core folks in this forum (including myself-- check all the STATS posts I've put up) will look the judging.. but the response I'm getting from people from my office (who don't watch skating that often) is "Yuna was great...she's amazing. etc, etc" and not one word about COP or that they didnt' agree with the marks or anything about that.

You must live in the States. I guess there's not such widespread figureskating fandom in the States right now, so maybe it's not so common. But more figureskating becomes popular in a certain area or culture, more likely will it be that even a casual fan will look at scores, and analyze.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
You must live in the States. I guess there's not such widespread figureskating fandom in the States right now, so maybe it's not so common. But more figureskating becomes popular in a certain area or culture, more likely will it be that even a casual fan will look at scores, and analyze.

Yes, I live in the States and yes there isn't a wide fandom here...but it's obvious to me that people were touched by Yuna's performance and could see with their own eyes why she won and won by a lot. That's been a big crticism of COP on these boards...and I hope people are excited at the fact that for once the audience picked a winner and it actually matched the judges result. The sports columnist at the Seattle Times, who usually covers football and college basketball and that kind of thing, pretty much said that Yuna's performance just really touched him and that he hopes people will remember that performance for a lifetime.

COP analysis is fine, but you cannot complain about the SOTL that many of these skaters put forth. I rather relish in that for now, and then analyze the numbers letter.
 

Fan123

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Yeah. I saw that clip as well. She's a good sport for acknowledging (in a circumvent way, but then, how else?) that the scoring was inexplicably skewed.
Yeah, she is a good sport about it all, and kudos to her....so admirable. That's why when it comes to these passionate discussions, I tend to not blame the skaters themselves. If anything, I thank them for the amazing things they can do. Kim's performance last night was truly a masterpiece, with or without the inflated marks given to her.
 

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Why all the hate directed at Elvis? Is his "been there, done that" opinion not respected because he's wrong or because it doesn't mesh with a person's fandom?

I tend to agree with Elvis... on both Mao's triple axles and the quads. Where is the incentive to try to raise the technical aspect of figure skating when the associated points don't match the difficulty? Jumps may not be the most important aspect of skating, but to imply (which is what judges have done all season) that jumps are not important is bad for the sport.

I had no problem with the placements of last night's skating - because all did great jobs - but I do have a problem with the ridculously high scores. Are skating fans such lemmings that the ISU has decided that if they give over inflated scores we'll become more engaged? Its not like casual fans know the difference. From my couch, the scores just looked silly.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I'm not big on the quad or triple axel (for women) but I do agree that those jumps should be worth more but I'm still more into the whole package (like a Michelle, Mirai, Takahashi, Jeremy Abbott and so on).
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
If you look at the history of when the Men were allowed to do a double or triple axel - it wasn't until most of the guys were attempting triple axels that the rule change came into effect. I'm trying to think back and I'm guessing it was the 1999 season since 1998 was still the standard mens' SP of 3A+3T, 3Lz, 2A.

Ant

So you have to wait for the pack to catch up? Should Jeret Peterson not do the hurricane because no one else could do them? Should Shawn White not do the double mctwist whatever because no one can? The rule is unfair to skaters who can do a 3A. If you look at the history of the sport, there are only 5 ladies who's done 3A in international competition, so time warp them together in one event before the 2A/3A rule can be changed? It was unfair, as simple as that.
 
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