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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsuhs View Post
    I don't know how accurate Kim's sp marks are, one thing surprised me though:
    a rather low GOE Asada got for her 3A+2T combo: +0.60. That's all. It's as if the judges are saying 'Nah, it was ok, but we've seen better. Much much better 3A+2T combos tonight'. Oh, have they really?

    And I'm not even commenting on Gedevanishvili's + 0.20 GOE on that 2A done out of the spiral. Who cares, right?
    Actually I think the lack of comparisons might be actually hurting Mao. Since she is the only women doing this combo now. The judges can only compare her with the men or past women like Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge). Whereas, there is more comparison for 3-3 and clearly Yuna's are the best in terms of speed and height.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Actually I think the lack of comparisons might be actually hurting Mao. Since she is the only women doing this combo now. The judges can only compare her with the men or past women like Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge).
    I think you're right reg the lack of comparison. But if they keep doing that, a new material for comparison may never arrive. They've already practically done that with harder 3+3s, now they discourage ladies from learning 3A.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Actually I think the lack of comparisons might be actually hurting Mao. Since she is the only women doing this combo now. The judges can only compare her with the men or past women like Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge). Whereas, there is more comparison for 3-3 and clearly Yuna's are the best in terms of speed and height.
    I agree with you, but the judges should not compare the ladies' GOE with the men's, not only for the 3As, but for all other jumps. The men usually have more speed, height, etc than the ladies. The 3Axel for the ladies is so rare these days...and to give it only a 9.5 base value is absurd, and less than the 3lutz/3toe combo. This is not Kim's fault...I adore her skating...but figure skating is a sport, isn't it?

  4. #19
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yangjie View Post
    former Canadian medallist Elvis Stojko, suggested that Kim's marks were too high. He noted that Asada had successfully landed a triple Axel - she's the only woman who executes them regularly in competition - and got fewer marks than Kim's easier triple Lutz.
    The argument is similar to the one over whether American Evan Lysacek should have won the gold medal without having landed a quad like his competitor Evgeni Plushenko.

    "Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

    http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-ska...u+na+path+gold

    I think another controversial result is about to be born..
    Why does anyone even ask this idiot his opinion.

    He's either been misquoted or he's actually even dumber than I first thought. Perhaps he isn't capable of simple reading comprehension and adding up. Elvis i have a calculater you can have (not borrow but actuall have) so that you can try to get your tiny pea brain around this idea.

    Here's the simple instructions for you:

    1. Look up the values in the scale of values for the following jumps: Triple Axel, Triple Lutz, Triple Toe-loop and double toe-loop.
    2. Write down "Asada" on the left side of your paper.
    3. Underneath "Asada" write down the total points for a Triple Axel and a Double toe-loop.
    4. Write down "Kim" on the right side of the paper.
    5. Underneath "Kim" write down the total points for a Triple Lutz and a Triple Toe.
    6. Now which one has the higher point value.

    Like it or not that's the way with COP. To suggest that a 3Lz/3T is somehow easier than a 3A/2T is just plain stupid. Yes the 3 Axel is a difficult jump, but a 3/3 combination is more difficult than a 3A/2 combination. The double toe is the easiest jump that you will see performed by elite skaters. It is a jump that some adult skaters can land - tacking it onto a 3A is not an impressive feat in and of itself - the triple axel is the only impressive thing about such a combination. Most elite senior (and actually probably junior too) skaters can tack a double toe on the end of any jump.

    And if he wasn't misquoted then someone roll up a copy of the COP and bat him over his nose like a naughty puppy! Kim didn't get more marks for her "easier" triple lutz compared to Mao's harder 3A, she actually got less points, what she got more marks for was her harder triple toe on the end compared to the easier double toe Mao tried.

    Ant

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    ...Midori Ito (whose 3A combos were huge).
    OK I know this is off topic, but MAN I love this lady's 3As I wish more men could jump like her.

    But to return to the topic, I think Stojko has a point about the most difficult jumps though. Most certainly, their base values should be reconsidered, in light of the Plushy vs. Evan controversy and (forbid this happen) a possible Yu-na vs. Mao debate*. But there's nothing that can be done at the moment. Changes come slow through a bureaucratic process. At the moment skaters should work with the system, however flawed, and try to tweak it. He should stop being so vociferous about his opinions. It doesn't help anyone. It just fuels controversy.

    * I want both of the them to skate clean, but can you just imagine the national animosity and nastiness to emerge if this were to happen? Yuck.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan123 View Post
    I agree with you, but the judges should not compare the ladies' GOE with the men's, not only for the 3As, but for all other jumps. The men usually have more speed, height, etc than the ladies. The 3Axel for the ladies is so rare these days...and to give it only a 9.5 base value is absurd, and less than the 3lutz/3toe combo. This is not Kim's fault...I adore her skating...but figure skating is a sport, isn't it?
    They shouldn't but I think they might unintentionally compare since there is no other woman doing it. Also, I was told GOE is given for height and ice coverage. I love seeing Mao's 3A because she makes it look so effortless and elegant. However, I do agree that she doesn't get as much height into her jumps as Kim does hers, so that may explain the disparity of their GOE's. I've said it before but I believe if Mao's jumps were as explosive as Midori Ito's she will be getting much higher GOE's.

  7. #22
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    I don't have a problem with base values or the GOE's. Goe's shouldn't be compared to other current skaters, but an ideal of perfection. They should, however, allow the women to do a double or triple axel for the required axel element. Then Mao could have attempted a triple triple and a triple axel.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    They shouldn't but I think they might unintentionally compare since there is no other woman doing it. Also, I was told GOE is given for height and ice coverage. I love seeing Mao's 3A because she makes it look so effortless and elegant. However, I do agree that she doesn't get as much height into her jumps as Kim does hers, so that may explain the disparity of their GOE's. I've said it before but I believe if Mao's jumps were as explosive as Midori Ito's she will be getting much higher GOE's.
    I think Dick Button said (last year during World) that there's a jump and there's a jump. Meaning a jump is more than a pop with a lot of revolutions thrown in.

    That's where some ladies' GOE may suffer. Yuna is lucky that she can skate so fast and still maintain full control because the speed gives her an extra boost to help her cover the ice so much (and to get the height).

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    Uh. How do you do Triple Lutz Triple Lutz combination?
    OOPS!!! You're correct. Thanks for catching that. It should be Triple Lutz Triple Toe which equals 6.8 + 4.0 = 10.8 which is still more than 9.5

    Actually it would be possible for a stupendous jumper in both directions to do a 3Zx3Z. Risky as all hell, and I dare Elvis to try it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ivy View Post
    Goe's shouldn't be compared to other current skaters, but an ideal of perfection.
    My exact thoughts. But... this is probably influenced by past skaters. This could be a very interesting thread topic.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    They shouldn't but I think they might unintentionally compare since there is no other woman doing it. Also, I was told GOE is given for height and ice coverage. I love seeing Mao's 3A because she makes it look so effortless and elegant. However, I do agree that she doesn't get as much height into her jumps as Kim does hers, so that may explain the disparity of their GOE's. I've said it before but I believe if Mao's jumps were as explosive as Midori Ito's she will be getting much higher GOE's.
    I wish people would actually read the rules for themselves before passing strong opinions about the rules, or what the judges might actually be doing. The judges work very hard to apply the rules that are in place. They do not make their judgments based on what they think the rules should be unlike most people chiming in (and probably like Elvis too).

    So go and actually look up the positive GOE criteria for jump combinations - and read all of the bullets that can make up the positive GOE. Then see which ones could apply in the case of these (and in fact any) jump combinations. It is not about comparison to other skaters, other jumps, other jumps by the same skater or even the same jump by the same skater.

    Ant

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I wish people would actually read the rules for themselves before passing strong opinions about the rules, or what the judges might actually be doing. The judges work very hard to apply the rules that are in place. They do not make their judgments based on what they think the rules should be unlike most people chiming in (and probably like Elvis too).

    So go and actually look up the positive GOE criteria for jump combinations - and read all of the bullets that can make up the positive GOE. Then see which ones could apply in the case of these (and in fact any) jump combinations. It is not about comparison to other skaters, other jumps, other jumps by the same skater or even the same jump by the same skater.

    Ant
    So you think judges don't ever do comparisons between skaters when scoring? Anyways, nothing wrong with stating opinions about the judging system~~~.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    They shouldn't but I think they might unintentionally compare since there is no other woman doing it. Also, I was told GOE is given for height and ice coverage. I love seeing Mao's 3A because she makes it look so effortless and elegant. However, I do agree that she doesn't get as much height into her jumps as Kim does hers, so that may explain the disparity of their GOE's. I've said it before but I believe if Mao's jumps were as explosive as Midori Ito's she will be getting much higher GOE's.
    I agree, Kim's 3lutz/3toe was so gorgeous...the best I have ever seen done by a lady. In terms of pure GOEs regardless of jumb combo, Kim wins. In terms of jump combo, Asadashould win. I understand tacking a 3toe a jump combo has higher base value than tacking a 2toe. However, the system should award the the primary jump (in this case 3Axel vs 3Lutz) more. Does anyone know the base value for a 3toe/3toe vs 2toe/3toe? Or the break down value of the jump combo (primary jump + 2nd jump) for the 3A/2toe vs 3Lutz/3toe?

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    Elvis Stoijko would oppose world peace if he thought that massive war was technically more challenging. I'm at the point where I really don't understand how he comes up with his thoughts.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Elvis Stoijko would oppose world peace if he thought that massive war was technically more challenging. I'm at the point where I really don't understand how he comes up with his thoughts.

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