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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #286
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    I don't get this "motive" that you guys are saying about the opposing camp. Are you implying that those like Hurrah opposes because they want Mao to win? I just don't see that in his/her posts. I think the same goes for Elvis. All the guy said was that the 3A should be worth more. Did he say that Mao should win because she does it? No. He said the gap should be closer and a lot of people agree that the gap should have been closer. He also did not say that Mao was a better skater than Yuna. So I don't get the arguments some people say that he doesn't value artistry and stuff.

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But to look at the issue objectively (LOL), the ISU is definitely cognizant of the point that Hurrah is raising. You don't want a skater to be able to rack up points by doing 100 double toes in a row.

    In the last few years the ISU has spoken to these points by

    (a) the rule that says only one of your three combos can involve more than two jumps;

    (b) If you do a combo or sequence with more than three jumps only the first three count; and

    (c) You can only do a total of three double Axels in your progam. (The previous rule was, you could do as many double jumps as you want. But when they raised the value of the double Axel to 3.5 points they didn't want someone doing seven double Axels and no triples.)

    The ISU also responded to folks like Stojko who think the triple Axel and quads deserve more points. Last year they raised the value of both of these challenging elements.

    Maybe next year they will raise them a little more. (The CoP is doing well, if you don't like it, ** ** **** -- (signed) Ottavio Cinquanta )
    Nice points, MM.
    I don't think it would hurt to raise the 3A a point or two. We'll see!

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I think Yuna (or any other skater competing at an elite level) should not be allowed to garner 6.9 points for doing an easy combo, when this method will allow them to minimize their inability to do a triple jump that they are not good at. This is especially the case when it is that harder combos are not being rewarded the points it deserves.

    In other words, permitting 2axel-2toeloop-2loop minimizes Skater A's jumping deficiencies, whilst also minimizing Skater B's amazing jumping abilities.

    I think this perspective can be applied to other competitions, e.g., Lysacek and Plushenko, or other skaters whose names are not Yuna Kim and Mao Asada.
    Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread, but I don't get it.
    So, hypothetically, what is so wrong if Mao misses her 3-2-2 because she has bad landing at 3F and then decides to attack 2A-2-2 instead and garners points accordingly???
    ???? Why so much hate aganist 2A-2-2?
    When it is well done, it is a beautiful combination. I also didn't use to like that combination that much, but Yuna's 2A(huge)-2T(fully rotated)-2L(Tano and also fully rotated and still has flow after that! Beauuuutiful) which comes from Ina Bauer with the right bit of music and notes totally changed my mind. That jump combination is a thing of beauty.

    ETA: Also I don't see how it works to 'minimize' skater B's jumping ability. If skater B's jumping ability is so amazing, B could add her solo 3L or 3T as a second jump in combination and then she'll have at least one extra slot for a jump to add 3S or 3Lz or one more 2A to maximize her points! How wonderful that would be! And why doesn't she do that? Riiiiiight, that stupid downgrade rule! Another rule to prevent Mao from winning.
    It's her own "jumping deficiencies" that is minimizing her score.

    ETA again: And guess what? If Mao was capable of putting 3-3 in her jump arsenal, she would be doing 2A-2L-2L just as well to maximize her score right now. So in a way it is lucky for you that she is not doing any 3-3.
    Last edited by gourry; 02-25-2010 at 01:36 PM.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by gourry View Post
    Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread, but I don't get it.
    So, hypothetically, what is so wrong if Mao misses her 3-2-2 because she has bad landing at 3F and then decides to attack 2A-2-2 instead and garners points accordingly???
    ???? Why so much hate aganist 2A-2-2?
    When it is well done, it is a beautiful combination. I also didn't use to like that combination that much, but Yuna's 2A(huge)-2T(fully rotated)-2L(Tano and also fully rotated and still has flow after that! Beauuuutiful) which comes from Ina Bauer with the right bit of music and notes totally changed my mind. That jump combination is a thing of beauty.
    What you said.

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I don't get this "motive" that you guys are saying about the opposing camp. Are you implying that those like Hurrah opposes because they want Mao to win? I just don't see that in his/her posts. I think the same goes for Elvis. All the guy said was that the 3A should be worth more. Did he say that Mao should win because she does it? No. He said the gap should be closer and a lot of people agree that the gap should have been closer. He also did not say that Mao was a better skater than Yuna. So I don't get the arguments some people say that he doesn't value artistry and stuff.
    From another thread, hurrah wrote:
    I so wish combos comprising more than one double jumps were prohibited because the ability to do such combos are not reflective of the skater's ability.

    If they were prohibited, Yuna would be forced to replace her 2a-2t-2l combo with a 3l, which would mean that she would potentially garner 59.45 in base points.

    Mao would be forced to replace her 3f-2l-2l with a 3f-3l, with a potential base point of 66.2.

    Had this been the case, Mao would have had a fighting chance against Yuna, but as things stand, it's the GOE that determines who's going to win.

    And GOEs only take into account things that Yuna is good at: speed. It doesn't take into account what Mao is good at: flexibility.

    It looks like the whole system's been carefully crafted to make sure Yuna wins no matter what. It simply doesn't matter whether or not Mao makes history by making the first woman to suceed three triple axels in a competition
    .
    That's what everyone is talking about. He/she is basically saying that COP was designed for Yuna and keeps Mao from winning.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I don't get this "motive" that you guys are saying about the opposing camp. Are you implying that those like Hurrah opposes because they want Mao to win? I just don't see that in his/her posts. I think the same goes for Elvis. All the guy said was that the 3A should be worth more. Did he say that Mao should win because she does it? No. He said the gap should be closer and a lot of people agree that the gap should have been closer. He also did not say that Mao was a better skater than Yuna. So I don't get the arguments some people say that he doesn't value artistry and stuff.
    I don't think their objections had so much to do with Elvis' article. Posters here have long forgotten about him. He, however, definitely has a point, and I agree with everything you've said about him. It just so happens that while you may not have read anything acerbic in Hurrah's posts, many have, including me. His posts elsewhere have also fuelled this. I found affront in the way he conveyed his objections, by singling out one skater and praising another skater at her expense. He had a double-standard, which made me believe that he was not proposing these changes for a general improvement of the rules, but for a particular skater. He also had a blindness for other people's logic, which also led me to believe he was a bot.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Well, hypothetically 5 points can easily be made up in the FP.

    However, I agree with karenll. It feels as though Yu Na is the foreordained queen, nothing Mao does can alter that, and there will be a scandal if anyone else wins unless Yu Na makes a huge error and Mao is absolutely flawless and incandescent. There's just been sooooo much hype about Yu Na and so little willingness on the judges' part to acknowledge that any aspect of her skating is less than ideal.

    I'm trying not to hold this against Yu Na. It's not her fault! And she is an amazing skater. I just don't like the constant theme, "she's in a class by herself." She's not that fabulous, or maybe it's more accurate to say sometimes she's that fabulous, but sometimes and in some ways she's not.
    Entering the conversation late, but will do so anyways

    I totally agree with everything you just stated. I love Yu-Na's skating and she's profoundly talented, but I'm pretty tired of the blind worship of the girl's skills. It's as if she is the second coming of Christ in figure skating and the most perfect skater of all time. I think a lot of people turn a blind eye to any of Yu-Na's imperfections. Why, I don't know. After the short, a lot of people on these boards were discussing why Yu-Na was scored so much higher and one point someone made was that Mao's spent a lot of time setting up her triple axel while Yu-Na had better transition into her triple-triple. I took a look at the program again last night and much to my surprise, Yu-Na spent just about the same amount of time setting up her combo as Mao did. Really, there was no difference in the amount of "gliding" done before the big money jumps. Am I the only one who noticed that?

    With the difference between first and second right now, Yu-Na has enough of a lead that she can mess up a bit and not have to worry. I predict the end results will be exactly the way they are now.

  8. #293
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    This sentence was the strange one:

    Mao would be forced to replace her 3f-2l-2l with a 3f-3l, with a potential base point of 66.2.
    If Mao wanted to do a 3F-3L and get more points, who is stopping her?

  9. #294
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    Whoa. Nothing wrong with Rules changing. If they're no longer relevant, they were mal-formed, or new elements preclude the same, then the Rules must. Action to make changes lye with the appropriate officials. Some board members are completely involved in supporting the status quo that making even a suggestion for change is out of the question.

    There's not much one can do about changing rules. there are higher powers for that based on very strange procedures in the late spring months. We've all seen URs that the Caller didn't. One has to accept this until the audience is able to see what the Tech Panel sees, and at the same time was it unanimous among the Panel members, and who among them differed? Not exactly a Rule, but the Rule prohibiting the names of officates at a competition is like sealed in a vault and unchangeable for fear of media blitz. So what? Why should this little girl sport not be able to grow up?

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raatkirani View Post
    Entering the conversation late, but will do so anyways

    I totally agree with everything you just stated. I love Yu-Na's skating and she's profoundly talented, but I'm pretty tired of the blind worship of the girl's skills. It's as if she is the second coming of Christ in figure skating and the most perfect skater of all time. I think a lot of people turn a blind eye to any of Yu-Na's imperfections. Why, I don't know. After the short, a lot of people on these boards were discussing why Yu-Na was scored so much higher and one point someone made was that Mao's spent a lot of time setting up her triple axel while Yu-Na had better transition into her triple-triple. I took a look at the program again last night and much to my surprise, Yu-Na spent just about the same amount of time setting up her combo as Mao did. Really, there was no difference in the amount of "gliding" done before the big money jumps. Am I the only one who noticed that?

    With the difference between first and second right now, Yu-Na has enough of a lead that she can mess up a bit and not have to worry. I predict the end results will be exactly the way they are now.
    If you all remember, at one point, Mao was also seen as the second coming of Christ in figure skating, especially with her beatting the 2006 Oly podium at GPF. And at one point I think there was an expectation that both Mao and Yuna would duke it out. And they did! People's memories are so short--- Yu-na won the 2006 and 2007 GPF to only get beaten by Mao at the 2007 and 2008 Worlds.

    That said, I don't think Yuna is perfect. Her spirals and spins could be better, but I think it's pretty clear that's she's been working on them.
    And the difference between Mao circa 2007 and Mao circa 2010 is a 3-3 and a lack of a lutz. I bet the 2008 Mao who had a 3-3 and 3A could easily beat Yuna.

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    No, the scoring system should be changed so that the person who's winning doesn't win unreasonably.

    I wouldn't mind it so much if Yuna does a 3l instead of 2axel-2toe loop-2loop. I would just like the jump scores to reflect the difficulty of the jumps more.

    I wouldn't mind it if GOEs didn't seem so subjectively given. Regarding GOEs, if comparing Yuna and Mao's short, I don't see such a huge problem, but if you compare how some of the other short programs, e.g., Elena's, were scored, GOEs are clearly subjective.
    Last season Yuna did a 3F-3T, 3Lz-2T-2Lo and a separate 2A. This season she switched the 2T-2Lo to the 2A and added a difficult entrance since she wanted to do 3Lz-3T and a separate 3F. How is she reducing the difficulty of her program? The only thing she can do to increase the difficulty of the program is to have a 3Lo instead of one of 2A! big deal! she does the third 2A after the half-point which makes its value around 0.6points less than the 3Lo which she can more than compensate for in GOE (again, difficult entrance). Now tell me that's not smarter than putting the inconsistent 3Lo within the current rules.

  12. #297
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Whoa. Nothing wrong with Rules changing. If they're no longer relevant, they were mal-formed, or new elements preclude the same, then the Rules must. Action to make changes lye with the appropriate officials. Some board members are completely involved in supporting the status quo that making even a suggestion for change is out of the question.

    There's not much one can do about changing rules. there are higher powers for that based on very strange procedures in the late spring months. We've all seen URs that the Caller didn't. One has to accept this until the audience is able to see what the Tech Panel sees, and at the same time was it unanimous among the Panel members, and who among them differed? Not exactly a Rule, but the Rule prohibiting the names of officates at a competition is like sealed in a vault and unchangeable for fear of media blitz. So what? Why should this little girl sport not be able to grow up?
    Some how I was put into the anti-changing rules camp because I was trying get some logic out of the changes that this particular poster wanted (which seem to have an agenda behind it).

    But I think this system has its flaws. Annynomous judging is NOT a good thing. The easy-and-fast rules on determing URs and making people lose competitions because of it is not a good thing. There's plenty of changes that should be made.

    But as you said, Joesitz, it's not going to happen right now.

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Some how I was put into the anti-changing rules camp because I was trying get some logic out of the changes that this particular poster wanted (which seem to have an agenda behind it).

    But I think this system has its flaws. Annynomous judging is NOT a good thing. The easy-and-fast rules on determing URs and making people lose competitions because of it is not a good thing. There's plenty of changes that should be made.

    But as you said, Joesitz, it's not going to happen right now.
    For the record, I'm also FOR changes to the CoP, as I think it's flawed. My biggest bone of contention, as mentioned earlier, is the anonymous judging. Also, I may love Yu-na, but I know she is also flawed. Please don't write me off as a bot

  14. #299
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    For the record, I'm also FOR changes to the CoP, as I think it's flawed. My biggest bone of contention, as mentioned earlier, is the anonymous judging. Also, I may love Yu-na, but I know she is also flawed. Please don't write me off as a bot
    I think no one is calling you a bot! You have engaged in plenty of fun disucssions here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    From another thread, hurrah wrote:


    That's what everyone is talking about. He/she is basically saying that COP was designed for Yuna and keeps Mao from winning.
    I don't know Hurrah and I'm very new here, but from the posts I have read by him/her I don't think he/she is a "bot"...but I could understand why some of you may think that. I agree with Miki...at least for me, I have expected the base value of the 3A-2T to be much higher than the 3Lz-3T...that is why I'm curious to know the history of the BV of the 3A since the inception of the point system. To me, this has nothing to do with Kim vs Asada. I know we all can get very passionate about what we believe is justified or not. Like I said before, kudos to Team Kim for using the point system to her advantage. If she or Asada retires after the Olympics, I would still like to see the 3A to be worth more, so no hidden agenda or conspiracy. Kudos to skaters with higher GOEs, but kudos to skaters who can do rare 3As or quads.

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