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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #301
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    This Mao v. Yuna thread is not exactly based on Stoyko's claim that a 3A is required for the Ladies competitition.

    Thinking about the results of the CoP: if Mao executes a 3A and afterwards a 3Ax2T she deserves the points allotted for those elements. If Yuna executes a 3x3, and a 3x3x2 she deserves the points allotted for those elements. ----- There is no argument here under existing procedures.

    The rest of the programs of both skaters should be judged in the same normal way given the GoEs and PCs which have much to do with opinions. This could be argumentive depending on what one considers 'artistry'. It's not unlike Wagner v. Verdi although with these two blokes, it's clear both had artistry; and it therefore becomes a preference.

    IMO, Wagner and Verdi are miles ahead of Mao and Yuna on Artistry, but still either Mao or Yuna could be a preference of the viewer. Hopefully, it is not based on their Nationality.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    This Mao v. Yuna thread is not exactly based on Stoyko's claim that a 3A is required for the Ladies competitition.
    Wait, I thought he said that the margin between Yu-na's score and Mao's was too big because Mao has a 3A and Yu-na has a 3-3? I don't remember having read anything about a 3A being a required element. That would be absurd. No one could skate except Mao then .

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    From another thread, hurrah wrote:


    That's what everyone is talking about. He/she is basically saying that COP was designed for Yuna and keeps Mao from winning.
    Well, there's a point in that.
    In the SP, all ladies must do a 2A. Men can sub a 2A for a 3A if they have it. Ladies should be able, too.

  4. #304
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    Kinda off topic, but Elvis Stojko reminds me of Toller Cranston, there's a reason they both live in Mexico; they're both alike. Outspoken, mercurial, steadfast & true, and very very very strong.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    This Mao v. Yuna thread is not exactly based on Stoyko's claim that a 3A is required for the Ladies competitition.

    Thinking about the results of the CoP: if Mao executes a 3A and afterwards a 3Ax2T she deserves the points allotted for those elements. If Yuna executes a 3x3, and a 3x3x2 she deserves the points allotted for those elements. ----- There is no argument here under existing procedures.

    The rest of the programs of both skaters should be judged in the same normal way given the GoEs and PCs which have much to do with opinions. This could be argumentive depending on what one considers 'artistry'. It's not unlike Wagner v. Verdi although with these two blokes, it's clear both had artistry; and it therefore becomes a preference.

    IMO, Wagner and Verdi are miles ahead of Mao and Yuna on Artistry, but still either Mao or Yuna could be a preference of the viewer. Hopefully, it is not based on their Nationality.
    Wagner? She's a nice skater but I wouldn't say her artistry is her main strength. Her presentation is not as polished as Mao or Yuna in my opinion. I do like her but she needs to smooth out her skating flows and not be so anxious. I do think she has a lot of potential, however. I've never seen Verdi so I can't comment on her.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Well, there's a point in that.
    In the SP, all ladies must do a 2A. Men can sub a 2A for a 3A if they have it. Ladies should be able, too.
    Yeah, I agree that there should be a degree of flexibility. I remember Mao in Junior Worlds 2006. She faltered in the short because she was required to do a 3-2 instead of a 3-3, which she was allowed to do in the senior circuit. After that, junior skaters were allowed to include a 3-3. Mao's the only skater who could substitute a 2A with a 3A at the moment, but who knows? In the future, there may be 3As all over the place. The sport evolves. There should be more room in which to explore and experiment.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan123 View Post
    ...that is why I'm curious to know the history of the BV of the 3A since the inception of the point system.
    There may have been some "history" in preliminary versions of the CoP, but as far as I can recollect it went something like this.

    Each of the triple jumps was worth haslf a point more than the next easiest, so it went like

    3T = 4,0, 3S = 4.5, 3Lo = 5.0, 3F = 5.5, 3Lz = 6.0.

    But the triple Axel was regarded as much more difficult, so instead of getting 6.5 points they pegged it at 7.5. A quad toe was even harder, so it got 9.0.

    Thus it was recognized from the beginning that these jumps were way ahead of the other triples.

    The double Axel was regarded as quite a bit easier than any triple, so it got only 3.3 base value.

    After the 2008 season, I believe, they revisited the base values and decided that there should be an even bigger gap between the other triples and the triple Axel. The base value of the triple Axel was raised to 8.2 points, making it worth 2.2 points more than a triple Lutz and closer to a quad. But since the quad is harder yet, they also raised the value of a quad toe to 9.8. This maintained (almost) the reletive difference between a 3A and a quad, but separated those two jumps even farther from the "mere triples."

    In fact, they decided that the triple Axel, with its three-and-a-half revolutions was more like a junior quad than a super triple, so now they list the 3A with the quads, with the 3A being the lowest.

    To be consistent, they then decided to put the double Axel in with the triples instead of with the doubles. So they pegged the double Axel at 3.5, then went up the list of triples by half-point increments as before. To make sure that skaters did not take undo advantage of this, they limited the number of double Axels allowed in a program to three.

    So now the proposal from Elvis and others is, basically, do it again. Raise the value of the triple Axel another 7 tenths or so.

    My personal opinion is that instead of doing this, the ISU will tackle the problem of combinations afresh. It is more difficult to do two triples in combination than to do the same two triples separately. It is more difficult to do a 2T/3T than to do a 3T/2T, yet the two combos receive the same base value. This is an area that needs attention, in my humble opinion.
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-25-2010 at 02:23 PM.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Well, there's a point in that.
    In the SP, all ladies must do a 2A. Men can sub a 2A for a 3A if they have it. Ladies should be able, too.
    Hey, I don't have a problem with that.
    I think people are just bothered that this poster is basically creating a conspiracy theory that the system is rigged so Yuna win.

    But let's say they change the rule and allows her to do that...So Mao would have a 3A (8.2) as her Axel jump. Then what would she have for her combo? She doesn't do a 3-3 so likely the combo would be a 3F-2T (6.8) and then maybe a 3L (5)for her triple-jump. Base value for jumpes = 20 Her base value for her SP on Tuesday =18.5. So it's a little bit better, but not by much.

  9. #309
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    quote from speedy

    "The system is not perfect but its structure is good and satisfactory because it quantifies a subjective concept. How many people can understand if a piano player is perfect? Figure skating is the same. Skaters must be well-rounded competitors and shouldn't be just valued for their jumps. If you want to jump, go do track and field or pole vault. This is not the circus."

  10. #310
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    Wow, I go away for a while, come back, to find out that I have been a topic of discussion. Kind of neat! I have to say that this is not my first time to be accused a 'Mao bot' by Yuna fans. Ant, for example, has been very quick to label me in the past as a 'Mao bot'. I do find it kind of disparaging as I have never accused posters I have been in discussion with that they are 'Yuna bots'. What is a 'bot' anyway?

    I would ask to beg pardon for highlighting Yuna and Mao maybe too much. However, in defense of myself, this is the direction that the thread's title: Stojko opposes the ladies result, would suggest. I don't understand why it would be more appropriate to talk about Cynthia Phaneuf's case against Mao, for example.

    Also, I think it is rather extreme to label me as a bot as I have not made any personal attacks on Yuna's looks, personality, conduct outside the skating rink, so forth. Indeed, I think those who label me as a 'bot' simply don't want to read anything critical about Yuna's skating skills, even when it is acknowledged that the general point being made is valid.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    There may have been some "history" in preliminary versions of the CoP, but as far as I can recollect it went something like this.

    Each of the triple jumps was worth haslf a point more than the next easiest, so it went like

    3T = 4,0, 3S = 4.5, 3Lo = 5.0, 3F = 5.5, 3Lz = 6.0.

    But the triple Axel was regarded as much more difficult, so instead of getting 6.5 points they pegged it at 7.5. A quad toe was even harder, so it got 9.0.

    Thus it was recognized from the beginning that these jumps were way ahead of the other triples.

    The double Axel was regarded as quite a bit easier than any triple, so it got only 3.3 base value.

    After the 2008 season, I believe, they revisited the base values and decided that there should be an even bigger gap between the other triples and the triple Axel. The base value of the triple Axel was raised to 8.2 points, making it worth 2.2 points more than a triple Lutz and closer to a quad. But since the quad is harder yet, they also raised the value of a quad toe to 9.8. This maintained (almost) the reletive difference between a 3A and a quad, but separated those two jumps even farther from the "mere triples."

    In fact, they decided that the triple Axel, with its three-and-a-half revolutions was more like a junior quad than a super triple, so now they list the 3A with the quads, with the 3A being the lowest.

    To be consistent, they then decided to put the double Axel in with the triples instead of with the doubles. So they pegged the double Axel at 3.5, then went up the list of triples by half-point increments as before. To make sure that skaters did not take undo advantage of this, they limited the number of double Axels allowed in a program to three.

    So now the proposal from Elvis and others is, basically, do it again. Raise the value of the triple Axel another 7 tenths or so.

    My personal opinion is that instead of doing this, the ISU will tackle the problem of combinations afresh. It is more difficult to do two triples in combination than to do the same two triples separately. It is more difficult to do a 2T/3T than to do a 3T/2T, yet the two combos receive the same base value. This is an area that needs attention, in my humble opinion.
    Thanks Mathman, for that history! In lieu of this debate, would you raise the BV of the 3A and Quad to be higher in addition to the jump combinations? Why or why not?

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsrossano View Post
    quote from speedy

    "The system is not perfect but its structure is good and satisfactory because it quantifies a subjective concept. How many people can understand if a piano player is perfect? Figure skating is the same. Skaters must be well-rounded competitors and shouldn't be just valued for their jumps. If you want to jump, go do track and field or pole vault. This is not the circus."
    Interesting. Do you know when he made this statement?
    Last edited by chloepoco; 02-25-2010 at 02:50 PM.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    What is a 'bot' anyway?
    A "robot." That is, someone who just mechanically heaps uncritical praise on his favorite and disparages his favorite's opponents without engaging his brain.

    I don't understand why it would be more appropriate to talk about Cynthia Phaneuf's case against Mao, for example.
    Because I am a Phaneuf-bot. It's all about Cynthia!

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Because I am a Phaneuf-bot. It's all about Cynthia!
    Ah, well, in that case, I will try and raise Cynthia Phaneuf as a case in point when I make my arguments in the future.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix347 View Post
    Wagner? She's a nice skater but I wouldn't say her artistry is her main strength. Her presentation is not as polished as Mao or Yuna in my opinion. I do like her but she needs to smooth out her skating flows and not be so anxious. I do think she has a lot of potential, however. I've never seen Verdi so I can't comment on her.
    Too bad. Her Traviata program is something special. But to see her Falstaff... hilarious, effervescent, and heartbreaking all at the same time!

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