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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix347 View Post
    Wagner? She's a nice skater but I wouldn't say her artistry is her main strength. Her presentation is not as polished as Mao or Yuna in my opinion. I do like her but she needs to smooth out her skating flows and not be so anxious. I do think she has a lot of potential, however. I've never seen Verdi so I can't comment on her.
    I think Joe was referring to Wagner the composer.
    Personally I perfer Verdi to Wagner, he is just too heavy for me...

  2. #317
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    wagner vs verdi...lol neither are my preferred composers (though if i had to choose, i would choose verdi most definitely)...if we're talking opera then PUCCINI ALL THE WAY! :D

  3. #318
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Wow, I go away for a while, come back, to find out that I have been a topic of discussion. Kind of neat! I have to say that this is not my first time to be accused a 'Mao bot' by Yuna fans. Ant, for example, has been very quick to label me in the past as a 'Mao bot'. I do find it kind of disparaging as I have never accused posters I have been in discussion with that they are 'Yuna bots'. What is a 'bot' anyway?

    I would ask to beg pardon for highlighting Yuna and Mao maybe too much. However, in defense of myself, this is the direction that the thread's title: Stojko opposes the ladies result, would suggest. I don't understand why it would be more appropriate to talk about Cynthia Phaneuf's case against Mao, for example.

    Also, I think it is rather extreme to label me as a bot as I have not made any personal attacks on Yuna's looks, personality, conduct outside the skating rink, so forth. Indeed, I think those who label me as a 'bot' simply don't want to read anything critical about Yuna's skating skills, even when it is acknowledged that the general point being made is valid.
    Fair enough. I just thought it was a bit much to say that the COP was designed so Yuna could could win. I think Yuna has been able to mask the weaknesses she has (lack of a 3L, average spirals/spins) and work with the system, but it's another thing to say that the powers that be designed the system so she would win no matter what. Yuna has lost under this system (2007 & 2008 Worlds; 2008 GPF and 2006 Skate Canada).

    BTW I never caled you a bot, nor will I do so. I agree that the word bot is thrown at anyone that gives critcism of a favorite skater. And I'm not into labeling anyway.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Also, I think it is rather extreme to label me as a bot as I have not made any personal attacks on Yuna's looks, personality, conduct outside the skating rink, so forth. Indeed, I think those who label me as a 'bot' simply don't want to read anything critical about Yuna's skating skills, even when it is acknowledged that the general point being made is valid.
    I'm sorry if my language was harsh, but no one labelled you a bot because you said "anything critical about Yu-na's skating skills." Constructive criticism is welcome anywhere, yet while you had some points relevant to CoP, you did not hesitate to bring in one skater, accuse her of orchestrating the whole system for her convenience and basically calling her a coward for not trying the 3L because it hurts her. What yelled out bot was your double standard. You criticized Yu-na for not having the full set of triples, while saying Mao's off the hook because she has a 3A, although she doesn't have a 3S or a 3Lz. Although you said Mao should try to get back that 3Lz, you also said she didn't really need the 3S. If you were to criticize both skaters for not having all triples, I would agreed with you, as I think all skaters should have them or struggle doing so. I cried out bot because I've read your posts elsewhere. You were ranting about how the system conspires against Mao, poor Mao, who is heaveny in the Elysium for 3A-jumping skaters, and brought in Yu-na as the evil villain, for whom this system runs. Well, that was the connotation.

    However, as I read more of your posts, I realized that your might've just used the wrong words to describe the situation. I'm guessing you didn't really mean Yu-na was there at the inception of the system or striking a deal with Speedy (which is what some Mao bots do say). You just meant that the GOE-system benefits Yu-na a lot more than it does Mao. If that's the case, I'm sorry I prematurely called bot alert. Don't worry, Yu-na fans here are willing to hear criticism of Yu-na's skating skills. If a Yu-na bot were to claim Yu-na's perfect, I would have an argument just like this because I know that's not true. And also know that many Yu-na fans here are also rooting for Mao (like me).
    Last edited by dlgpffps; 02-25-2010 at 03:55 PM.

  5. #320
    Custom Title Phoenix347's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gourry View Post
    I think Joe was referring to Wagner the composer.
    Personally I perfer Verdi to Wagner, he is just too heavy for me...
    Oops, I feel silly now... I even did a search on figure skater named Verdi. Yes, I love Verdi's Requiem. Wagner is a bit bombastic for my taste. I need to read more carefully. :D

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix347 View Post
    I even did a search on figure skater named Verdi. Yes, I love Verdi's Requiem. Wagner is a bit bombastic for my taste. I need to read more carefully. :D
    LOL You are so cute!! For a moment I was also wondering if there is a skater named Verdi. What a beautiful name for a musical skater!

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by gourry View Post
    LOL You are so cute!! For a moment I was also wondering if there is a skater named Verdi. What a beautiful name for a musical skater!
    Maybe Valentina Marchei should consider changing her name to Valentina Verdi... with her parents' consent of course!

  8. #323
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix347 View Post
    Oops, I feel silly now... I even did a search on figure skater named Verdi. Yes, I love Verdi's Requiem. Wagner is a bit bombastic for my taste. I need to read more carefully. :D
    Put me in as part of the "I thought Verdi was a figure skater" club.
    This thread is getting way OT....!!!

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan123 View Post
    Thanks Mathman, for that history! In lieu of this debate, would you raise the BV of the 3A and Quad to be higher in addition to the jump combinations? Why or why not?
    I do not have a strong opinion about this one way or the other. The current values seem OK to me.

    An international coaches group that gsrossano is associated with put forward an interesting scale of values last year based on the mathematical premise that as you add rotations the difficulty of the jump actually goes up exponentially instead of linearly.

    So for instance, if the base value for a single toe-loop is 0.25, and the value for a double toe is 1.00, that's four times as much. So for a triple toe it should be four times the value for a double (4.0) and a quad should be four times that (16.0). Presumably a quint would come in at 64 points.

    The way the CoP is actually constructed, though, it seems like the premium is on the margin -- how can you squeeze a few extra points out of the system to set yourself above all the others who are doing more or less the same thing.

    For instance, under the current rules the only bonus you get for doing a triple-triple combination is that you get to do an extra triple jump within the total of seven jumping passes. You don't get the extra jump plus some bonus points on top of that for doing it in combination. So the idea is that the system provides the opportunity to squeeze ahead of everyone else , but it's up to you to seize it -- and it is hard to do so successfully.
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-25-2010 at 03:33 PM.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    So for instance, if the base value for a single toe-loop is 0.25, and the value for a double toe is 1.00, that's four times as much. So for a triple toe it should be four times the value for a double (4.0) and a quad should be four times that (16.0). Presumably a quint would come in at 64 points.
    Which means we will see two Kevins on the podium every time? Scary....

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I do not have a strong opinion about this one way or the other. The current values seem OK to me.

    An international coaches group that gsrossano is associated with put forward an interesting scale of values last year based on the mathematical premise that as you add rotations the difficulty of the jump actually goes up exponentially instead of linearly.

    So for instance, if the base value for a single toe-loop is 0.25, and the value for a double toe is 1.00, that's four times as much. So for a triple toe it should be four times the value for a double (4.0) and a quad should be four times that (16.0). Presumably a quint would come in at 64 points.

    The way the CoP is actually constructed, though, it seems like the premium is on the margin -- how can you squeeze a few extra points out of the system to set yourself above all the others who are doing more or less the same thing.

    For instance, under the current rules the only bonus you get for doing a triple-triple combination is that you get to do an extra triple jump within the total of seven jumping passes. You don't get the extra jump plus some bonus points on top of that for doing it in combination. So the idea is that the system provides the opportunity to squeeze ahead of everyone else , but it's up to you to seize it -- and it is hard to do so successfully.
    I think Plushy would love your new scoring system!

    Edit: He might even start practicing his quintuple toe-loops!!
    Last edited by Phoenix347; 02-25-2010 at 04:14 PM. Reason: More comments

  12. #327
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    Hurrah wrote:

    "I so wish combos comprising more than one double jumps were prohibited because the ability to do such combos are not reflective of the skater's ability.

    If they were prohibited, Yuna would be forced to replace her 2a-2t-2l combo with a 3l, which would mean that she would potentially garner 59.45 in base points.

    Mao would be forced to replace her 3f-2l-2l with a 3f-3l, with a potential base point of 66.2.

    Had this been the case, Mao would have had a fighting chance against Yuna, but as things stand, it's the GOE that determines who's going to win.

    And GOEs only take into account things that Yuna is good at: speed. It doesn't take into account what Mao is good at: flexibility.

    It looks like the whole system's been carefully crafted to make sure Yuna wins no matter what. It simply doesn't matter whether or not Mao makes history by making the first woman to suceed three triple axels in a competition. "


    (Emphasis mine and also another poster who quoted this sentence.)

    You know, I'm not even remotely inclined to lean toward being convinced (am I sounding dubious enough, lol?) that the results of any competition SHOULD have anything to do with whether a skater "makes history" during the competition, unless the skater "makes history" in some manner that positively affects their results within the sport's rules. The competition should be decided on the rules as they stand, not whether or not a move or set of moves "makes history". Plenty of skating "firsts" have been performed by skaters who don't go on to win or even medal in said history-making competition. I really don't think Mao should inherently win just because she might do 3 triple axels during a competition, wonderful though that would be. Just as Goebel was never a shoe-in because of the number of quads he performed, to give another specific example, or Ito with her magnificent triple axel -- or when a pair is the first to do a certain type of triple- or quad- throw, for a less specific but non-jump example!

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Hey, I don't have a problem with that.
    I think people are just bothered that this poster is basically creating a conspiracy theory that the system is rigged so Yuna win.
    But let's say they change the rule and allows her to do that...So Mao would have a 3A (8.2) as her Axel jump. Then what would she have for her combo? She doesn't do a 3-3 so likely the combo would be a 3F-2T (6.8) and then maybe a 3L (5)for her triple-jump. Base value for jumpes = 20 Her base value for her SP on Tuesday =18.5. So it's a little bit better, but not by much.
    Well, CoP's evolved so much that it's now more favorable to Yuna compare to Mao.
    When CoP started, flutz wasn't penalized. Mao did 2 Flips, 2 Flutzes, 1 Axel, 1 Loop, 1 Toe in her first senior worlds. Her entire junior career included 3 flutzes/event.
    That, coupled with the axel rule in the SP, pretty much sealed the deal for Mao. For the record, flutz should be penalized. I don't agree with the 2A in the SP.
    Like you said, her base value would go up, but the difficulty would stay the same. She would have to do the 3A like she's doing now (same risk), doing the 3flip now (same risk), and her favorite loop jump. The gap between Yuna and Mao would be closer.

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    So for instance, if the base value for a single toe-loop is 0.25, and the value for a double toe is 1.00, that's four times as much. So for a triple toe it should be four times the value for a double (4.0) and a quad should be four times that (16.0). Presumably a quint would come in at 64 points.
    Thanks, MM! So it has the theoretical basis to raise the quad value more. I don't think it should raise to as high as 16.0 though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix347 View Post
    I think Plushy would love your new scoring system!

    Edit: He might even start practicing his quintuple toe-loops!!
    Plushenko never said that he's going to do quintuple jumps. Lysacek did. Maybe Lysacek should start to practice it?

  15. #330
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Well, CoP's evolved so much that it's now more favorable to Yuna compare to Mao.
    That, coupled with the axel rule in the SP, pretty much sealed the deal for Mao.
    Men's SP rules for 2A or 3A is a relatively recent change, though (within the last 5 or 7 years). To change the ladies' rule will take a while.

    I think you need to read the rules, understand the rules, and tailor your skating to maximize your points under the current rules based on your strengths. I skate under IJS at Adult Nationals and there are a lot of people who tailor their program to their strengths (high level spiral sequences in adult Gold ladies where single Axels can be iffy, higher level spins in Masters Intermediate/Novice without attempting double jumps, etc) and determine what will work BEST for them based on what they can do. I am not the most flexible of skaters, yet I've found ways to maximize my step/spiral sequence element and to gain higher levels on spins based on bullets I can complete without tearing muscles by trying to put my skate in my ear. This is where the comment about plan your skate and skate your plan comes in = put in the elements that will get you the max number of points CONSISTENTLY, work on the elements that are less consistent/less likely to attain 0 or higher GOEs and add them in slowly to improve your chances for a higher score. If something is not likely to score well or isn't part of the + GOE bullet checklist or PCS bullets, then don't work on it or don't do it.

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