02-25-2010, 06:07 PM
Last edited by Mathman; 02-25-2010 at 06:11 PM.
02-25-2010, 06:15 PM
Elvis Stojko needs to get his head out of his butt, and return back from the Stone Age. All of these "arguments" that he throws out are all just for controversial attention. The result isn't even that close. Kim is nearly 5 points ahead, and if you look at the protocols, technically, their base marks were essentially identical with the except of 3a/2t = 9.5 base marks for Asada and 3z/3t = 10.0 base marks for Kim.
I fully agree with the low GOE for Asada's 3a/2t mostly because the exit out of it was SLOW and the 2t afterward was tiny and ALSO slow. Kim's 3z/3t was FAR superior as far as quality, and if we're going to get into the debate about difficulty. Yes, the 3a is MORE difficult, BUT think about the SECOND half of that combo, you're comparing a whole extra rotation that Kim does. Scott Hamilton made a good point in the SP commentary that a 3a/2t = 5.5 revolutions while a 3z/3t = 6 revolutions. On top of that, Kim opened the combo with the 2nd hardest triple possible, it's not like she was doing a 3s/3t or a 3t/3t.
02-25-2010, 06:56 PM
I'm pretty sure it was longer than that. I watched the 2002 Olympics and remember Yagudin did a triple axel that was a bit off axis. Plushenko also did a triple axel. It's been more than 8 years, considering the men event concluded, with Plushenko silver again. In fact, I think Plushenko SP layout is the same as Yagudin in 2002. I guess he can say he kept the level of the sport instead of pushed it.
Originally Posted by mskater93
Everyone needs to read the rules. The problem someone brought up was with the rules, not reading and comprehending the rules.
02-25-2010, 07:00 PM
New to the forum, so if I make any stupid comments or offend anyone, apologies!
I can only catch up by watching what is posted on the internet - mainly European channels - as I live in the UK. Commentaries have been interesting; one of the UK eurosport boys (Chris/Simon) thought he slightly preferred Yuna to Mao & the other (Simon/Chris) thought Yuna was better by a fairly significant margin (didn't say by how many points); the French eurosport thought Yuna was better but by 3 points rather than 5; the Germans said, before Yuna's score came out, she would be ahead by about 5 points (...freaky).
As a complete layman who has been an avid figure skating fan for over 30 years, I find both ladies awsome but in VERY different ways. In my very personal and non-professional opinion, the difference between the two ladies' programmes, certainly for THIS season, is a bit like how a signature dish of an amazing chef comes together. I thought most of Mao's individual components in extreme snapshots (eg. from the moment the blade leaves the ice and lands back on), were superb, like the best ingredients one could find. Some of Yuna's were even better, some equally good and others less so. However, I felt that there was a difference worth 5 points in the way they were executed (cooked) and presented (placed in front of you - voila!) as a PROGRAMME lasting 2 mins 50 secs. I think that reflects the coaches and choreographers behind the programmes rather than the abilities of the two skaters. Even if the scoring system were to be altered by a point or so here and there, I'm not sure it would make that much difference for these particular programmes. Despite all this debate and opinions, including mine, if either makes mistakes tonight, she will lose, though.
I really hope ALL the ladies put up a fantastic event tonight, and really really hope no-one puts up NASTY (eg. "I hope so-and-so bombs tonight", "I'm so glad so-and-so fell") comments here!
02-25-2010, 07:10 PM
Welcome to forum! As Mathman says, post long and often!
Originally Posted by Puppylove
Also, those are lovely comments and very much appreciated!
02-25-2010, 07:49 PM
looking for fresh blood
One thing I would argue with the jumping protocols for CoP is that they shouldn't necessarily be the same for every discipline. The 3A is the easiest example: you can't be a top mens competitor if you don't have a 3A (unless you have a quad to make up for it), whereas very few ladies can actually do it, and only one pairs team has landed a (throw) 3A in competition. CoP reflects degree of difficulty... the harder the jump, the more points it's worth. CoP would be more accurate if the actual point value of the elements (in this case jumps, since this is really what this discussion is about) reflected the degree of difficult for a specific discipline (ladies, mens, pairs). A jump like a 3A should be worth more in ladies and pairs than it is in mens... perhaps even the 3F and 3Lz should be boosted a bit in ladies as well, since relatively few ladies skaters have both the 3Lz and 3F mastered (and consistently landed) correctly.
02-25-2010, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by bethissoawesome
Why do they need to be scaled by discipline? They are still the same movements - it's a matter of getting them in the right order of difficulty and alotting the appropriate base points. I would agree if the competiton was amongst all discplines - a handicap to level the playing field since there are limitations due to gender and 2 vs 1 person performing.
02-25-2010, 09:55 PM
Monday, quotes in Wall Street Journal
Originally Posted by chloepoco
02-26-2010, 02:56 AM
Believe in your eyes. Don"t make yourself an *******, please. You used to be a professional. Don't be cheap to be talked about you in any price!
Last edited by Tonichelle; 02-26-2010 at 03:02 AM.
Reason: inappropriate language - do not bypass the censor.
02-26-2010, 04:13 AM
what stojko wanted to say is that 3a for the ladies and quads for men are underestimated under CoP.
02-26-2010, 04:29 AM
While that certainly might be the case with some posters it certainly isn't for me. I've said several times over and over, that this last quadrennial of ladies skaters have made my interest in the ladies evaporate completely. I'm not vested in any particualr skater at all, I enjoy some of Yuna and Moa's programmes together with some of Joannie's and also Lepisto. I watch (through fingers often!) Jenna McKorkell's to bang the home drum, but even watching those programmes I don't feel the excitement I did when Kwan and Slutskaya were competing.
Originally Posted by miki88
To bring it back to the proposed rule changes, most people have seemed to have a knee jerk reaction to the outcome of the SP (and presumably the LP but i've not waded into that car crash yet!) and I have used not only the rules and the scale of value, but also suggestions from other posters (like gkelly) as to how the rules might be revised and given justification for them. IMO saying things like 2/2 combinations should be banned, shows a great amount of ignorance of the sport of figure skating, the way it is used, the grass roots way in which COP is being implmented in most countries. As I and many others have pointed out COP is not just used to score the podium at worlds and Olympic it is used in all levels of competition and "banning" anything is against the spirit of the cumulative scoring system that COP is. I have yet to read a single justification for the proposed rule changes (ban 2/2 jumps, increase the value of the 3A) other than the unspken "because that way Mao will win". Accusations of Kim's lead being unfair, despite it being clear in the protocls why the scores were made.
Most importantly though i wrote a fairly lengthy post explaining the changes that i thought would be sensible, without mentioning either Mao or Kim, but that seemed to get lost in the crowd because it wouldn't catapult Mao to the top :shrug:
02-26-2010, 05:02 AM
If you look at the history of when the Men were allowed to do a double or triple axel - it wasn't until most of the guys were attempting triple axels that the rule change came into effect. I'm trying to think back and I'm guessing it was the 1999 season since 1998 was still the standard mens' SP of 3A+3T, 3Lz, 2A.
Originally Posted by FlattFan
Similarly with the addition of the quad to the SP - that didn't come into effect until all of the final group in the Men's competition were attempting quads in their LPs.
What I don't understand is why team Mao didn't use the 3A as the solo jump in the SP. She's done it from brackets before, and even if she didn't many of the ladies fail to put steps before the required triple anyway so i doubt there would be much if any penalty. That would leave her able to go for a 3/3 combination. That's been my suggestion all along for her SP. In that regard there was nothing stopping her doing the triple axel as a solo jump.
02-26-2010, 11:47 AM
Waiting for on-ice perfection.
OK I take back my last post about hurrah. The person meant what I thought he meant. In the Ladies LP post he wrote:
But whatever. I'm so happy tonight that I'll forget those words were ever spoken.
Originally Posted by hurrah
02-26-2010, 12:54 PM
I believe Yuna did her job. She performed to convincingly win her gold.
I believe the judges didn't do their job. Their apparent job is to judge fairly. But they didn't do that.
I also believe the judges did Yuna disservice. EVen without them raising her up, with the performance she gave, she would have won anyway.
They also did disservice to other skaters. It's they that train everyday and give their guts out on the ice. But this system would reduce them to mere cogs in the system.
02-26-2010, 01:15 PM
We will never know what the judges would have done if Yuna didn't skate clean and I think it's a total waste of time to suppose what could have been.
Originally Posted by hurrah
The judges were giving PBs left and right last night and pretty much everyone in the top 11 did great skates with no falls, so I don't know why you feel the judges were doing a disserve to other skaters. And I didn't see cogs - I saw people who rose the occasion.
There are plenty of non-skating fans that were amazed by the performances last night and I doubt anyone is thinking for a moment about the judging.