Page 27 of 35 FirstFirst ... 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 LastLast
Results 391 to 405 of 520

Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #391
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    Regarding my post about Tat, I just think there's a political aspect to how some 3-3's are ratified and some aren't or how GOEs are catered out, that's all. But I do really think that Tat has choreographed some great programs for Mao, not Bells so much but the other three have been lovely.

  2. #392
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,780
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Rachael Flatt was a top 10 point getter (for a single element) for doing a 3Z-2T.
    What do you mean? Rachael Flatt is always in the top 10, it is expected that she has a single element in the top 10 point getter. Your point would only be valid if Rachael skated to a last place finish in Colorado, but still managed a top 10 point getter with a 3Z-2T.

  3. #393
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think I understand this comment. How does the CoP disallow Mao from landing triple-triples comfortably?

    On the contrary, the CoP does everything it can to encourage triple-triples by Mao and everyone else.
    Maybe I should not have put 'CoP' as the subject. It's just that what can be deemed an under-rotated jump seems so varied.

  4. #394
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,838
    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Yes, your comparison is more accurate. It's still the case that the third double-axel in Yuna's case is being used to 'pad' her program.
    Again, this discussion is not about Yu-na Kim, right? We are talking about possible rules changes that will affect all skaters equally.

    The reason that I do not think a change is necessary is this. Every skater is allowed one three jump combination. You can do 3Lz/3T/3Lo (like Kevin Van der Perren.) You can do 4T/3T/2Lo like Plushenko. You can do 3F/3T/2Lo -- that would be a big point getter for a lady. You can do 3Lo/2?lo/2Lo (I think both Mao and Slutskaya have done this in the past.) You can do 2A/2T/2T if you are willing to settle for fewer points. You can do 2Lz+2T+2T -- an excellent choice if you do not have a full complement of triples and if your double Axel is unreliable as well.

    Each skater choses the combination that best suits his/her program. I guess in a way you could call it "padding." As in, Plushenko padded his point total at Russian nationals by doing 4T/3T/2Lo. He would have padded it even more if he had done 4T/3T/3Lo.
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-26-2010 at 09:39 PM.

  5. #395
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    9,688
    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    What do you mean? Rachael Flatt is always in the top 10, it is expected that she has a single element in the top 10 point getter. Your point would only be valid if Rachael skated to a last place finish in Colorado, but still managed a top 10 point getter with a 3Z-2T.
    Not necessarily. Actually Elene Graborova, who finished 21st, was in the top 10 with her 3T-3T (it's just the rest of her program was not so good). And Miki Ando, despite being 5th, actually didn't make it in the the top 10 for single elements.

    Rachael got a a good bonus for her 3Z-2T because of the 10 percent 2nd half bonus and some GOE. The point was that Mao could easily tick off some major points by simply adding a lutz to her arsenel.

  6. #396
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    9,688
    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Regarding my post about Tat, I just think there's a political aspect to how some 3-3's are ratified and some aren't or how GOEs are catered out, that's all. But I do really think that Tat has choreographed some great programs for Mao, not Bells so much but the other three have been lovely.
    Problem is that TAT is in Russia and won't come to Japan and Mao won't move to Russia. So the partnership won't work until one or the other agrees to move so they can spend more time working together.

  7. #397
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,100
    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I'll try to be more sensitive. I wasn't so conscious of it until it was pointed out to me.



    Someone else must have suggested this. I never have. I did, however, say that 2a-2t-2l should not be allowed in a long program. Basically, what I'm saying is that the third double-axel (and additional double jumps that are attached to it) should not be allowed. The third jump enables a jumper to avoid a triple jump they're not good at and still get points equivalent to a triple jump---in fact, it gets more points than a triple jump: 6.9 rather than 5.0 if it's a triple-loop that's being avoided. So I pointed out that this option enables a skater to garner points without actually demonstrating his/her technical versatility that they ought have to to get such points, at the expense of another skater who jumps a huge risk triple-axel combo.

    You see, I'm not a Yuna fan, so I perhaps feel more keenly that she should really earn those points.

    By the way, Lepisto got 10 GOEs that night, second only to Yuna who got around 18. Lepisto is very beautiful and manages to land more triples than Caro, and I guess they need a European rep.
    Why is it okay for Mao to do a double axel instead of a 3lutz or a 3sal, but its somehow wrong for Yu-na to do a double axel instead of a 3loop? As for the rest of Yu-na's double axels, one of her double axels is a freakin requirement (Mao fulfills the requirement with a 3axel). And the third is a reward for doing a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe. In fact now a lot of the women are doing combinations like Mirai's 3loop seq double axel, in order to ensure that they can fit in more double axels.

    If Mao wanted she could easily do instead of her second 3flip/2loop she could just do the 3flip seperately and then she could do what Joannie Rochette normally tries to do double axel double axel sequence. To pick up more points.

    Currently the ability to fit in extra double axels is the only reward in the system for doing harder combinations. All of the women except for Mao it seems are trying to fit in as many double axels as possible (Mirai I believe did 3 double axels as well) As for the double axel/2toe/2tano, Mao did at one point a double axel/2toe/2loop herself (If I recall correctly). Until this season Yu-na always did 3lutz/2toe/2loop but now that she's doing the 3lutz/3toe, there's no real rhyme or reason to do the 3lutz/2toe/2loop as well, especially since the base value is the same if she does the 2axel/2toe/2tano.

    If they want to get rid of the double axel rule, they will have to find another way to reward hard combinations. That will hardly hurt Yu-na.

  8. #398
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Why is it okay for Mao to do a double axel instead of a 3lutz or a 3sal, but its somehow wrong for Yu-na to do a double axel instead of a 3loop?
    I would not find it okay if Mao were doing double axel instead of a 3lutz or 3sal. But I think she is replacing what might normally be a 3lutz or 3sal with 3axel.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    If they want to get rid of the double axel rule, they will have to find another way to reward hard combinations. That will hardly hurt Yu-na.
    What other ways could there be to reward hard combinations? I guess just give more points for them? I think this would be fair. I definitely think 3lutz-3toe can be awarded more. However, before awarding 3lutz-3toe, 3axel-2toe would have to be increased in value because it should be valued higher than 3l-3t. If I were to consider this process of change as someone who has Yuna's interest at heart, I would want to avoid opening up this debate.
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-26-2010 at 11:04 PM.

  9. #399
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    mass
    Posts
    413
    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    lol, but i kond of agree. Elvis and yagudin are among my favorite men. Exciting, masculine, the big jumps, great footwork. Lysaceks program was not as exciting without the quad tri[les we became used to seeing. Time to tweak the CoP, methinks. Plush just did not have it that night. I think MAO in undrscored and it was much harder to do technically two triple axels. Most everyone agrees YUNA was overscored on many elements-rediculous coronation. Oh well, that's figureskating. BTW I loved Laura Lepisto and Kira. When I want to see really beautiful skating, I look to ladies of the past, though Mirai gave me hope with that LP skate.

    YUNA's LP was nice but I think her best thing is her speed into that great 3/3. I don't find her moving or compelling or emotional. I think Chen Lu should be her next coach. I'd love to see what Kat Witt would do with her if only she coached elites. Brian has done a good job but he needs to push her now on quality...I think he's too enamored of her celebrity/hype to really polish and push her basic skating skills.

    Figures again, anyone???? Guess I'll go watch Witt videos, lol... (old fart purist speaks up......)

  10. #400
    The Future Mrs. Evan Lysacek #1Kerryfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Cleveland Heights, Ohio
    Posts
    601
    I've got to say I agree with Stojko this time. I thought Asada should have gotten the ladies gold. I was mad when he dissed my boy Evan, but Kim was overscored. She's the new Michelle. No woman has ever done three triple axels in a competition before! Kim didn't even try one.

  11. #401
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,100
    I would not find it okay if Mao were doing double axel instead of a 3lutz or 3sal. But I think she is replacing what might normally be a 3lutz or 3sal with 3axel.
    Sigh. Mao IS doing a double axel instead of a 3lutz or 3sal, because according to the rules she can do a 3axel and a 3lutz. I agree that as long as Mao does a 3axel than she can get away without a 3lutz, but its still her making a tradeoff. She's not gaining as much points as she would because the 3axel is instead covering a technical deficancy. I ' not sure why this isn't hard for people to understand...And 3sal and 3lutz are two completely different jumps too with different takeoffs (etc). And once again its one thing to not have an easier triple like a 3sal or a 3loop. Its another thing not to have a 3lutz.

    Its a lot easier to master one hard jump or one trick. Even if that hard jump or trick is really difficult. Than it is to master multiple tricks. Mao's ability to do a 3axel is amazing. But the rest of her jumps besides her 3loop, actually need some work. There are seven jumping passes for a reason.

  12. #402
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Sigh. Mao IS doing a double axel instead of a 3lutz or 3sal, because according to the rules she can do a 3axel and a 3lutz. I agree that as long as Mao does a 3axel than she can get away without a 3lutz, but its still her making a tradeoff. She's not gaining as much points as she would because the 3axel is instead covering a technical deficancy. I ' not sure why this isn't hard for people to understand...And 3sal and 3lutz are two completely different jumps too with different takeoffs (etc). And once again its one thing to not have an easier triple like a 3sal or a 3loop. Its another thing not to have a 3lutz.

    Its a lot easier to master one hard jump or one trick. Even if that hard jump or trick is really difficult. Than it is to master multiple tricks. Mao's ability to do a 3axel is amazing. But the rest of her jumps besides her 3loop, actually need some work. There are seven jumping passes for a reason.
    Mao has one double-axel in her LP, which, I agree is used to trade off on lack of 3lutz or 3sal. But it's far less 'padding' than Yuna's three double-axels, you know?

    Mao needs a solid lutz. As for solidifying her sal, I think it's only important to show that she is versatile.

    By the same token, Yuna needs to show she has a solid loop, and really, a 3axel if that's possible.

  13. #403
    Mashimaro on Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,419
    I don't think there's anything wrong with Mao's SAL. It's just she doesn't like to do that jump. She has favorites I guess. Anyways, in regards to her lutz. Is it really a benefit for her to include it? I mean she often gets dinged for it. She corrected the edge but it's still shaky maybe because of lack of confidence on this jump. In the past, Mao has lost of points because of her flutz, so I think she has good reason to not to include it for this season.

  14. #404
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I don't think there's anything wrong with Mao's SAL. It's just she doesn't like to do that jump. She has favorites I guess. Anyways, in regards to her lutz. Is it really a benefit for her to include it? I mean she often gets dinged for it. She corrected the edge but it's still shaky maybe because of lack of confidence on this jump. In the past, Mao has lost of points because of her flutz, so I think she has good reason to not to include it for this season.
    No, there's nothing wrong with Mao's sal. I was just thinking that she should solidify it until she's comfortable with it.

    Regarding lutz, it would be to her huge benefit if she masters it so completely that not even the most knitpickiest tech panel could dinge her for it. I think there was good reason she didn't include it this season, but now that the next Olympics is 4 years later---and the great thing is that as a result of this Olympic her axel technique is better than ever before---she should just focus on mastering the lutz, which will probably require some changes to her muscular structure. But she'll do it I'm sure!

  15. #405
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by #1Kerryfan View Post
    I've got to say I agree with Stojko this time. I thought Asada should have gotten the ladies gold. I was mad when he dissed my boy Evan, but Kim was overscored. She's the new Michelle. No woman has ever done three triple axels in a competition before! Kim didn't even try one.
    I agree with you. The problem is they have been changing their scoring system these several years, which gave too much advantage to Yuna.
    They added added added....to her score for various reasons. It's too much that technical ability isn't the most important now.
    If this is a skate show, it would be good but this isn't a show but a competition.
    Plus, it's hard to understand how they add a certain score....Johnny Weir is a kind of similar to Yuna but they didn't give him high score, which is difficult to understand.
    Oda's 3Lz-3T was really great but they gave only 0.6 poiint to his jump, which makes it difficult to understand why they gave 2.0 point for Yuna's 3Lz-3T. There are countless doubt how they add such huge scores.
    Another problem is that Yuna must have known she would be overscored before she started skating, cause she has been overscored especially these 1 or 2 years, which made her amazingly relaxed when she skates. Plus Mao must have known Yuna's score before she started.
    I think Mirai wasn't rewarded enough too.
    It's not that I don't like Yuna's performance. I love her performance and I think she did a great job. But it was just unfair. That's a shame!
    Last edited by ultimatebabe; 02-26-2010 at 11:43 PM.

Page 27 of 35 FirstFirst ... 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •