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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #421
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Good point about the combo mathman. Another problem I see is the ratio between the base values and the GOE. GOE can easily override the base value differences, esp with their recent policy to reward GOE more generously. GOE could be factored relative to the base value of each jump. I think it fine that a flawed quad/3A scores less than a decent 3A/3Z. Perhaps the good thing about the current system is that it encourages the skater to really master the basics. But a decent quad/3A scoring the same as or less than a well-excuted 3A/3Z sounds a bit strange to me.

  2. #422
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    I think the way Mao usually performed her 3(f)lutz is better then some others at the top tier who did the jump at the Olympics . I think the way Mao usually performed her 3-3 would have been ratified at the Olympics. I feel sorry for her for these things because hers were put under extreme Scrutiny. I also think that if the 3A was allowed to be the Axel in the short that alone would have boost Mao's self esteem. She put so much of herself into that 3A :( The rise in self esteem might have made her programs less dark and moody. Oh well the right programs won the medals. Yu Na is a deserving Olympic champion. My favorite of the quad probably. Well Mirai but I'm thinking of her as more next quad.

  3. #423
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    I expected nothing less than for Elvis to pipe up about the ladies result. He never disappoints. The problem is "it's getting old, Elvis". We all know what you think and personally, I don't really care. It's shame his music career attempt didn't work out so we wouldn't have to hear his whining.

    The truth is......figure skating is much more than just jumping. I do appreciate Mao Asada. I would have been happy to see her win the gold but frankly Yuna Kim was so much better. She presented the whole package. Mao made some sloppy landings and awkward movements. Yuna was very smooth and just a little more elegant in her presentation. In my opinion, Yuna is scads ahead of the competition in presentation. She is just a gorgeous skater in my opinion. I'm thrilled she won.

    Elvis----please leave the building!

    Dizzy

  4. #424
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    I expected nothing less than for Elvis to pipe up about the ladies result. He never disappoints. The problem is "it's getting old, Elvis". We all know what you think and personally, I don't really care. It's shame his music career attempt didn't work out so we wouldn't have to hear his whining.

    The truth is......figure skating is much more than just jumping. I do appreciate Mao Asada. I would have been happy to see her win the gold but frankly Yuna Kim was so much better. She presented the whole package. Mao made some sloppy landings and awkward movements. Yuna was very smooth and just a little more elegant in her presentation. In my opinion, Yuna is scads ahead of the competition in presentation. She is just a gorgeous skater in my opinion. I'm thrilled she won.

    Elvis----please leave the building!
    Totally agree. I used to be an Elvis fan. I admired how he fought for Nagano, even with the injury, but his spouting off about these Olympics has gotten under my skin.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by mylastduchess View Post
    short answer for the PCS difference.... Mao had bad choreo... there was not a lot of transitions and the music was just too heavy for such a light skater like Mao, If she had a stronger program like she did in 2008 and more speed I think the PCS difference would have been miniscule.
    I rewatched Kim's LP again, and it was just as good as when I watched it live on TV. If what you are saying is true, I'm puzzled then why Kim and Orser were super surpised on the 150 point. Kim was saying 130-140 point at best...so how come your assessment is much higher? Could the GOE and PCS be subjective in this case as well?

  6. #426
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    I would say that 10 point difference in estimate came from "overscoring" that almost all skaters received in this event.

    I don't think I agree with some people's suggestion in previous posts that not having quads/3As automatically=lower technical quality. For both men and ladies, if having some of the more difficult combination jumps (excluding ones with quads&3As) with height and distance, transitions in and out of jumps, dazzling (dazzling, not frantic) footwork sequences and actually skating the music (beyond wearing themed costumes and hitting a couple of notes here and there) is easy, why aren't more skaters doing it?

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan123 View Post
    I rewatched Kim's LP again, and it was just as good as when I watched it live on TV. If what you are saying is true, I'm puzzled then why Kim and Orser were super surpised on the 150 point. Kim was saying 130-140 point at best...so how come your assessment is much higher? Could the GOE and PCS be subjective in this case as well?
    I think they have been always gracious in K&C in most times, as the manner dictates. And honestly, I don't think there are any figure skater who'd be arrogant enough to say that world record is deserving, may be except Plush? :P

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzydi7 View Post
    I expected nothing less than for Elvis to pipe up about the ladies result. He never disappoints. The problem is "it's getting old, Elvis". We all know what you think and personally, I don't really care. It's shame his music career attempt didn't work out so we wouldn't have to hear his whining.

    The truth is......figure skating is much more than just jumping. I do appreciate Mao Asada. I would have been happy to see her win the gold but frankly Yuna Kim was so much better. She presented the whole package. Mao made some sloppy landings and awkward movements. Yuna was very smooth and just a little more elegant in her presentation. In my opinion, Yuna is scads ahead of the competition in presentation. She is just a gorgeous skater in my opinion. I'm thrilled she won.

    Elvis----please leave the building!

    Dizzy
    I would agree, Yu-na presented a better package. But we do know she is beatable; remember in 2009 at this very same venue, for Four Continents? Mao Asada did beat Yu-na Kim in the free skate; it was by virtue of Yu-na's short program did she win the competition.

  9. #429
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    Now, I heard the rumor that he might coach Mao. If this is true, everything makes sense.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellcat View Post
    Now, I heard the rumor that he might coach Mao. If this is true, everything makes sense.
    haha that would be nice. I am sure that there are many who want to work with Mao. It would be a joy and rewarding challenge to work with a talented student. But is he willing to come to Japan regularly? Japan is such a lovely place to visit though.

  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8n Mama View Post
    Totally agree. I used to be an Elvis fan. I admired how he fought for Nagano, even with the injury, but his spouting off about these Olympics has gotten under my skin.
    I don't consider this 'spouting off' at all. He is expressing his opinion, as is everyone else. Just because you don't like his opinion does not make it a bad thing for him to say that difficult jumps should be rewarded more. Yu na's scores were inflated in both SP and LP. She deserved to win, but not by that much. Mao's triple axel-2toe should have been rewarded more. This whole system needs to be revamped to encourage skaters to challenge themselves. I think that's the point Elvis is trying to make and he is consistent in what he says. Would you rather he promotes athleticism in the mens event and say contradictory things in the ladies event ? I respect him for expressing his opinion, no matter how unpopular it is with people in the USA and Canada. Elvis is speaking up for the sport he loves, regardless of what country a skater is from.

    BTW, those who say that only Yu na is the most complete skater, need to compare her spirals with Mao's. Yu na's are only average. Mao has gorgeous lines, better posture, better spins than Yu na. I do believe Yu na is more developed artistically and Mao is still trying to find herself in that area, but how can you not be impressed with a lady who landed 3 triple axels in a competition, two of them in combination? On top of it she has the beautiful lyrical quality to her skating. She did make a couple of mistakes in the LP and lost points, but she is a great skater, and a complete one too. Yu na is not the only one.

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    She did make a couple of mistakes in the LP and lost points, but she is a great skater, and a complete one too. Yu na is not the only one.
    I agree. Both ladies are quite excellent in both technique and artistry.

  13. #433
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    Originally Posted by Vash01
    She did make a couple of mistakes in the LP and lost points, but she is a great skater, and a complete one too. Yu na is not the only one.
    I totally agree. For the last year and half I felt like they (commentators and such) were trying to down play that fact but that's just me.

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    So you have to wait for the pack to catch up? Should Jeret Peterson not do the hurricane because no one else could do them? Should Shawn White not do the double mctwist whatever because no one can? The rule is unfair to skaters who can do a 3A. If you look at the history of the sport, there are only 5 ladies who's done 3A in international competition, so time warp them together in one event before the 2A/3A rule can be changed? It was unfair, as simple as that.
    I don't know - I was just pointing out that the ISU has never changed it's rules based on the fact that one person in the world has performed a particular jump.

    I also think that the SP, at least pre-mid-90s was used more like say the original dance in that there were elements that every elite skater could do in their sleep (like required double loop). So it allowed for a more comparable level playing field. However, since the point of the SP nowadays isn't particularly clear, it is literally a shorter version of the LP and the LP has become far more prescriptive, then the requirement of that more level playing field together with getting rid of "mandatory" elements and giving more choice to the skaters...perhaps it should be optional 2 or 3 axel for the women (or pehaps just scrap the SP since it serves little to no purpose...but that's for another thread!). In reality right now it would only benefit Mao, and you have to ask yourself if that wouldn't be seen as a little strange to be changing the rules to benefit one skater.

    Ant

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I don't know - I was just pointing out that the ISU has never changed it's rules based on the fact that one person in the world has performed a particular jump.

    I also think that the SP, at least pre-mid-90s was used more like say the original dance in that there were elements that every elite skater could do in their sleep (like required double loop). So it allowed for a more comparable level playing field. However, since the point of the SP nowadays isn't particularly clear, it is literally a shorter version of the LP and the LP has become far more prescriptive, then the requirement of that more level playing field together with getting rid of "mandatory" elements and giving more choice to the skaters...perhaps it should be optional 2 or 3 axel for the women (or pehaps just scrap the SP since it serves little to no purpose...but that's for another thread!). In reality right now it would only benefit Mao, and you have to ask yourself if that wouldn't be seen as a little strange to be changing the rules to benefit one skater.

    Ant
    You could argue that any judgement criteria will benefit one skater---the skater that wins under that system.

    If the rule says that the winner is determined by who runs the fastest 100-meter, then the person who can run the fastest 100-meter benefits from that rule, and on, and on, and on.

    I think you can only decide on the rules based on if it can be considered fair. Is it fair to give someone who's way ahead of the pack in terms of being able to rotate more quickly in the air, the chance to use that ability to have more chance at winning?

    Or, you could consider what the best rules are from the point of view of promoting advancements in the sports. It's far harder to do a triple-axel with steps preceding it, or as a combo. If you want to encourage female skaters to incorporate this technique, giving them the option to do it the easiest way means that they are more likely to practice it. Being able to put in a triple-axel in both short and long means that more skaters wiould be willing to devote their time training for it.

    Or, you could argue that since men are allowed to do it, why not women? And just end it there.
    Last edited by hurrah; 03-04-2010 at 12:59 AM.

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