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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #496
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Are you sure? I don't think so.

    Usually the purpose of a 2A+3T is to save an extra jumping pass without having to do a triple-triple.
    No, I'm not sure at all; I just assumed it. You might be right.

  2. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I think only one 2A can be done solo; the others have to be in combination. So her second 3T was used in combination with a 2A to make them both legal.
    No the Zayak rule about repetition of jumps applies only to triples. You can repeat as many double jumps as you like without them being in combination. The only rule for the double axel is that you can only have a maximum of three double axels in one programme.

    Ant

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by szidon View Post
    If the system would encourage ladies to attempt the 3A and, as a result, discourage them to properly learn other 5 triple jumps, do you think it's desirable in the FS?

    Mao learned how to execute the 3A but she's not properly taught how to do the Lutz and Sal. Actually she mastered the 3T just before the 2008~2009 season. (Her 3T was the toe axel before.)
    If the 3A would be rewarded more than now, I think we could see lot of skaters like Mao.
    Not necessarily. It really depends on how you reward/encourage/not discourage difficult elements. 3A is just one example of it. You can bet, once some countries stop serioulsy politiking against the basic fluency in triples or a minimum number of different triples to be demonstrated in LP for ladies, you will see the rule of basic fluency taking effect sooner or later. In order for that to happen, some lady skaters must retire or some countries have a new crop of skaters not hurt by the rules.

    The men's has had three Olympic champions in a row with quads before Lysacek. You can say, quads have become a tradition, which is why a system discouraging quads is a regress. For ladies, 3A has not been a tradition. It has been more or less a novelty. There will be other measures to prevent 3A from being a dominant a factor for the ladies.

    That is, one jump will not do, especially for ladies.
    Last edited by key65man; 03-10-2010 at 03:35 PM.

  4. #499
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    What I find astonishing is all this talk about the jumps, as if they're the "be-all, end-all" aspect to figure skating. Is this the main reason we watch it? Do I assume that none of you tune in to ice dancing? Because ice dancing, while it does have its own difficult elements, has no jumps to speak of. And yet, if you were fortunate to have watched Virtue/Moir from Canada and Davis/White from The United States, you'd have been blown away by the sheer beauty, elegance and power of these skaters. Now, I do not pretend to have any "technical" knowledge of ice skating. But I do enjoy it immensely. And perhaps that's the reason why I'm having my "say" about the original concept of this thread, which was a controversial comment from Elvis Stojko.
    Kurt Browning, when asked how he felt about Stojko's comments, said that he initially agrees with Elvis that the 3A/Quad jumps should be higher. HOWEVER, he also said that it should only be ONE part of the scoring. Otherwise, he said you should just line people up and have them jump over and over again. That, he said, is NOT figure skating. And I totally agree with him. Did Yuna win unfairly? No. Perhaps, if I give in to the prevailing argument that the 3A should be given more points, there would be a 2 or 3 point lead in her SP over Mao Asada. However, the FS determined ultimately who would win the gold medal. Mao failed to perform a clean FS and no one can take the responsibility for that except for Mao. But what garnered Yuna the huge points is that her coach and choreographer drew up the program with the current ISU rules & regulations in place so that if Yuna skated clean programs, it would allow her to accumulate the most points possible. Brian Orser also questioned why Mao's coaching staff didn't get on board with that. It may be argued that Brian was just being "commercial" or "slick" but I feel that he was living up to his expectations as her coach and giving her a program that would allow her to win. Why can't Mao's people do the same? Clearly, she's skilled enough.

    Everyone here will have a BIASED "favorite" skater. That's cool because everyone's looking at each skater through their own rose-colored lenses. And our favorite skater may win or lose. But we all know that in our hearts, gold or not, they're always winners.

  5. #500
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    Not necessarily. It really depends on how you reward/encourage/not discourage difficult elements. 3A is just one example of it. You can bet, once some countries stop serioulsy politiking against the basic fluency in triples or a minimum number of different triples to be demonstrated in LP for ladies, you will see the rule of basic fluency taking effect sooner or later. In order for that to happen, some lady skaters must retire or some countries have a new crop of skaters not hurt by the rules.

    The men's has had three Olympic champions in a row with quads before Lysacek. You can say, quads have become a tradition, which is why a system discouraging quads is a regress. For ladies, 3A has not been a tradition. It has been more or less a novelty. There will be other measures to prevent 3A from being a dominant a factor for the ladies.

    That is, one jump will not do, especially for ladies.
    And I kind of think it would be too bad if the 3a started showing up more among the ladies to the detriment of a the 3-3, which is what happened with Mao's skating. It's great that she can do a 3a (most of the time.) But somehow, it's more satisfying that Yuna can do such an amazing, huge and technical PERFECT 3 lutz-3 toe.
    The 3 lutz-3 toe is NOT an element that most women skaters have mastered. Not at all. It's still a reach, especially to pull it off with no flutz and with ease.
    Mao made history by pulling of two 3 axles in an Olympic LP, so good for her and I happen to be great fan. But Mao cannot do a 3 lutz-3 toe the way Yuna can. Not even close. So who is to say which of them shows the greatest technical ability?
    Yuna is certainly pushing the technical boundaries of her sport.
    There is something to be said about quality and the quality of Yuna's jumps are breathtaking.

  6. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    And I kind of think it would be too bad if the 3a started showing up more among the ladies to the detriment of a the 3-3, which is what happened with Mao's skating. It's great that she can do a 3a (most of the time.) But somehow, it's more satisfying that Yuna can do such an amazing, huge and technical PERFECT 3 lutz-3 toe.
    The 3 lutz-3 toe is NOT an element that most women skaters have mastered. Not at all. It's still a reach, especially to pull it off with no flutz and with ease.
    Mao made history by pulling of two 3 axles in an Olympic LP, so good for her and I happen to be great fan. But Mao cannot do a 3 lutz-3 toe the way Yuna can. Not even close. So who is to say which of them shows the greatest technical ability?
    Yuna is certainly pushing the technical boundaries of her sport.
    There is something to be said about quality and the quality of Yuna's jumps are breathtaking.
    I mostly agree with you. And, I am not even a fan of Mao's Triple Axel.

    I think it is about as difficult to do an exceptional 3Lz (GoE of 2 to 3 or, say, 2.5 on average) as a poor 3A with heavy prerotation, borderline under-rotation, and little aesthetic merit (say, GoE of 0.5 for the sake of argument). With everything else being equal (e.g., time bonus), the poor 3A would receive 8.7 on average while the exceptional Lutz 8.5. In that sense, I think the current score potential including base value and GoE for 3A is enough as far as fairness is concerned about Mao and Yuna. In other words, if you limit the issue down to Mao and Yuna, I absolutely agree that Mao fans and Japan have no real argument about it.

    However, there is another issue regarding incentive and being at the frontier technique-wise as there is no denying that a great 3A is more difficult than a great 3Lz, and 3A assumes higher risk. That is to be accounted for.

    The trick, in my opinion, is to "gradually" get to the point where the system gives enough incentives, yet keeps its integrity by not giving so much as to be exploited by skaters with "poor" 3A (e.g., the score potential for poor 3A "far" exceeding that of great 3Lz) -- I consider Mao's triple Axel poor. In that sense, if at all, a possible change in 3A would be small.

    As far as Mao is concerned, the change would be about 1 or 1.5 point when she lands both 3A's including the combination. That would not motivate other skaters not equipped with proper technique and natural talent to stick with 3A. However, that adds a bit for skaters who have potential to do great 3A.

    I expect a mid-point to have a bit bigger impact as an equalizer. If implemented wrongly, this will produce an army of skaters with poor technique. The change, if at all, should be very modest unless politics truly prevails upon it. Many countries other than Japan get benefits out of it. If they are short-sighted enough, they will make it happen in a manner that there is no proper way to reward "good" skaters. And, the mid-point will blur the line of good and bad techniques. Such a change cannot be defended, and I don't think it will happen that way.

    If you really think about it, a mid-point for Mao is not very consequential for all practicality once you take politics into consideration (what a wonderful world of figure skating!). In Vancouver, the tech panel was very lenient on some top skaters (with an exception of Rachael) on under-rotation and other technical issues. Who is to say the phenomenon will not recur at a bigger stage like worlds and another Olympics (or even GPF)? For Mao, it is more about sticking it or not rather than 1/4 under-rotation.

    I agree that any change about 3A will hurt triples if not properly devised and implemented. There is only country who benefits from a radical change about it right now. Once Mao retires -- 4 more years of non-sense on 3A, that is -- there will be far less pressure about it, as well. I think adding a bit more on 3A will not change the current trend of figure skating.

  7. #502
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    Mao's triple axel is not poor at all. It is very light and they are great trple axelsl. I just feel that the skating community and the media have somehow decieded to favor Yuna since few years ago. The community could have made a big deal about Mao's triple axel and could make her unbeatble queen of ice. However somehow they decided to make Yuna as one of the greatest skater by using her 3-3. The 3-3 has been exectued by so many skaters before whether they were big or small or smooth or rough. Even some junior level skaters have attempted them before. But noone can do 3A except Mao right now and for her to do 3 of them should be truly appreciated. but the media and community did not want to. It has nothing to do Mao or 3A itself, it just the community deciede to go against her and decided to take Yuna's side. It is really unfortunate for Mao.I do not know the reason behind it. Is it politics related to money?(by Yuna winning how many people know that they can make profit out of her definitely more than when Mao won) Or they did not want 2 Japanese gold medalists in a row with Trasova as a coach? Or too many enthusiastic korean fans somehow pursuaded North American media to push Yuna instead of Mao by using cyber world? I defenitely believe that Yuna deserved the gold medal becasue after all she is the one who did clean program. But if the media and skating community have been on Mao's side for a while like they did for Yuna, the olympic result may have been different. I just can not understand all the hypes about Yuna at all. Except her 3-3, I do not see anything special about her skating.
    To me, both of them are about same.It was just Mao's luck that they biased against her.
    Last edited by PROKOFIEV; 03-22-2010 at 11:01 PM.

  8. #503
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    What "community" are you talking about? Never in my life occurred to me that the world of figure skating is one chummy community

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    Maybe I should say atmosphere or air? I do not know how to describe it. But definitely Yuna was decided to be the greatest ,but not Mao. Yuna''s 3-3 got appreciated more. not Mao's 3A. It could have been the other way around, if the media wanted it be. Judges could have given more GOE to Mao especially spins and footworks, but they did not want to. The whole air went somehow against Mao. As I said before, to me. both of them are about the same. It depends on how each person wants to decide which is better.

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROKOFIEV View Post
    Maybe I should say atmosphere or air? I do not know how to describe it. But definitely Yuna was decided to be the greatest ,but not Mao. Yuna''s 3-3 got appreciated more. not Mao's 3A. It could have been the other way around, if the media wanted it be. Judges could have given more GOE to Mao especially spins and footworks, but they did not want to. The whole air went somehow against Mao. As I said before, to me. both of them are about the same. It depends on how each person wants to decide which is better.
    At the Olympics, they were not the same. Mao made couple of obvious mistakes and Yuna did not.

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    That makes more sense. Each event, there seems a skater everyone is pulling for. Sort of like a sentimental favorite. Yuna at the worlds 09, Alissa at US Nats last year, Carolina at the worlds 08, Mao at the worlds 07, etc. At the olympics though, Yuna had so much more momentum than everyone else it would've been absurd for her not to be favored. In a perfect world, past results shouldn't affect the outcome, but nonetheless Yuna earned right reputation justifiably. As for Mao's drop in reputation "points", I believe being beaten by lesser skaters early in the season really did her in. She should never allow herself to be beaten by skaters like Alena Leonova.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrlmy View Post
    That makes more sense. Each event, there seems a skater everyone is pulling for. Sort of like a sentimental favorite. Yuna at the worlds 09, Alissa at US Nats last year, Carolina at the worlds 08, Mao at the worlds 07, etc. At the olympics though, Yuna had so much more momentum than everyone else it would've been absurd for her not to be favored. In a perfect world, past results shouldn't affect the outcome, but nonetheless Yuna earned right reputation justifiably. As for Mao's drop in reputation "points", I believe being beaten by lesser skaters early in the season really did her in. She should never allow herself to be beaten by skaters like Alena Leonova.
    That is my point. Because of unfairly biased atmosphere or air or whatever you call it, Mao lost a momentum to do well beginning of this year. I do not believe at all that Yuna earned right reputation justifiably. Depending on the media and so son, Mao could have been favored and the error of the beginning of the season could not have happened.Yuna did well because the media and air was on her side. i say this again and agian. Yuna is no way superior to Mao. Their basic skills are about the same. Yuna may be a little faster. Mao is much more flexible. i did not get convinced from this year's program that Yuna is muscial at all. Yuna has a great 3-3 and Mao is the world's only one female skater who can execute 3 3A.
    No matter how you try to convince me, I can not agree that Yuna is better skater than Mao at all. And I am sure you do not want to accept Mao is better than Yuna either.
    Some may think Yuna's 3-3 is better and others think Mao's 3A worth more. But this time they took Yuna's side waaaaaay more than necessary and I fel it was Mao's bad luck.
    It could have been the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix347 View Post
    At the Olympics, they were not the same. Mao made couple of obvious mistakes and Yuna did not.
    Exactly. i totally agree with you. What I am trying to say that if from few years ago just like Yuna's 3-3, Mao's 3A was treated like something so amazing and if the media kept on talking about how great acoomplishment it is for woman to do so, and hyped up about it, maybe Mao had a great season this year and things may have been different even at the Olympic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROKOFIEV View Post
    Maybe I should say atmosphere or air? I do not know how to describe it. But definitely Yuna was decided to be the greatest ,but not Mao. Yuna''s 3-3 got appreciated more. not Mao's 3A. It could have been the other way around, if the media wanted it be. Judges could have given more GOE to Mao especially spins and footworks, but they did not want to. The whole air went somehow against Mao. As I said before, to me. both of them are about the same. It depends on how each person wants to decide which is better.
    As for spins, I think Mao did not miss out on it. Actually, I believe she got more than she deserved on Flying Sit Spin for which she got level 4. Her "flying" did not exactly achieve the height with the body and legs. More importantly, when she "sits," she is supposed to maintain a good form with speed. However, Mao's form broke down as her body gradually dropped toward the ground. Most people would say that the spin does not deserve anything better than level 3.

    I am not sure whether you are talking about step sequence or TL in PCS. As for step sequence, Mao made a couple of small mistakes, or her steps were imprecise. Mao does not have great edge control to beigin with. In the LP, Mao also ran out of steam by the time she got to the end of the program to do the step sequence, which probably contributed to her getting level 3 on it.

    For TL, Mao did not have great transistions and footworks. Mao did not have good transitions.

    Triple Axel is a great and difficult skill, which is why it gets 8.2 points for base value. However, the current system (CoP) looks at how well it is executed in addition to how difficult it is. When I said Mao's 3A was poor, I did not mean it was not difficult or it should not deserve appreciation. I meant that Mao did not execute it well enough.

    There was little hype about Mao and her 3A because she had not managed to land it with a semblance of consistency this season. In fact, she was not that good with it last season, either. It took some Japanese coaches and the serious weight loss to land 3A by the end of this season.

    Even when she managed to land them in the Olympics, many would disagree with you on how well they were executed. (Right now, Mao is not getting as much celebrated as you think she should not because there is a conspiracy against her but because the gold medal gets the most attention) Most important thing is that it is not the media hype that settles the score. It is rather the quality of works by the criteria we agreed upon before the competition began. I can subjectively appreciate the flexibility of Yuna, but the criteria we agreed upon would not agree on it. That is not a conspiracy. That is just how things are decided as objectively as possible.

    So, do I think Mao performed well in Vancouver? Yes, I do. Worthy of a podium finish. Was it good enough to beat Yuna or for the gold? Not a chance. For the silver? Many even think that is debatable because the very lenient judging favored skaters with technical issues (Mao is one of them).

    Again, 3A is a great skill. However, it is just one skill. It is like a home run in baseball. She hit 3 of them in Vancouver. But, Yuna hit two of her own with 3Lz and 3T and managed to collect lots of hits and therefore scored more runs. That was the story.

    Since you are subscribing to a conspiracy theory, you will have to discover the truth (or a truth) on your own as the believers don't seem to listen to the others who hold different views. But, Japan is arguably the most influential country in the politics of figure skating. Mao has been a beneficiary of it. This time, Yuna did not make a mistake for politics to have a big role. That is how I see it.

    Mao showed great determination without which she would not have managed to perform so well (including 3A) in Vancouver. I see that as her ultimate victory in Vancouver as not many foresaw it because she had been struggling greatly until the end of the season. Landing however many 3A cannot be equal to that. As for me, landing 3A at the Olympics is a thing of minor importance.

    I am sure Mao is as determined for the worlds. As I hear that there have been some distractions for Yuna after the Olympics, I actually think Mao has a good chance to beat Yuna (assuming that Yuna may make mistakes). I wish her well.
    Last edited by key65man; 03-23-2010 at 09:57 AM.

  15. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    As for spins, I think Mao did not miss out on it. Actually, I believe she got more than she deserved on Flying Sit Spin for which she got level 4. Her "flying" did not exactly achieve the height with the body and legs. More importantly, when she "sits," she is supposed to maintain a good form with speed. However, Mao's form broke down as her body gradually dropped toward the ground. Most people would say that the spin does not deserve anything better than level 3.

    I am not sure whether you are talking about step sequence or TL in PCS. As for step sequence, Mao made a couple of small mistakes, or her steps were imprecise. Mao does not have great edge control to beigin with. In the LP, Mao also ran out of steam by the time she got to the end of the program to do the step sequence, which probably contributed to her getting level 3 on it.

    For TL, Mao did not have great transistions and footworks. Mao did not have good transitions.

    Triple Axel is a great and difficult skill, which is why it gets 8.2 points for base value. However, the current system (CoP) looks at how well it is executed in addition to how difficult it is. When I said Mao's 3A was poor, I did not mean it was not difficult or it should not deserve appreciation. I meant that Mao did not execute it well enough.

    There was little hype about Mao and her 3A because she had not managed to land it with a semblance of consistency this season. In fact, she was not that good with it last season, either. It took some Japanese coaches and the serious weight loss to land 3A by the end of this season.

    Even when she managed to land them in the Olympics, many would disagree with you on how well they were executed. (Right now, Mao is not getting as much celebrated as you think she should not because there is a conspiracy against her but because the gold medal gets the most attention) Most important thing is that it is not the media hype that settles the score. It is rather the quality of works by the criteria we agreed upon before the competition began. I can subjectively appreciate the flexibility of Yuna, but the criteria we agreed upon would not agree on it. That is not a conspiracy. That is just how things are decided as objectively as possible.

    So, do I think Mao performed well in Vancouver? Yes, I do. Worthy of a podium finish. Was it good enough to beat Yuna or for the gold? Not a chance. For the silver? Many even think that is debatable because the very lenient judging favored skaters with technical issues (Mao is one of them).

    Again, 3A is a great skill. However, it is just one skill. It is like a home run in baseball. She hit 3 of them in Vancouver. But, Yuna hit two of her own with 3Lz and 3T and managed to collect lots of hits and therefore scored more runs. That was the story.

    Since you are subscribing to a conspiracy theory, you will have to discover the truth (or a truth) on your own as the believers don't seem to listen to the others who hold different views. But, Japan is arguably the most influential country in the politics of figure skating. Mao has been a beneficiary of it. This time, Yuna did not make a mistake for politics to have a big role. That is how I see it.

    Mao showed great determination without which she would not have managed to perform so well (including 3A) in Vancouver. I see that as her ultimate victory in Vancouver as not many foresaw it because she had been struggling greatly until the end of the season. Landing however many 3A cannot be equal to that. As for me, landing 3A at the Olympics is a thing of minor importance.

    I am sure Mao is as determined for the worlds. As I hear that there have been some distractions for Yuna after the Olympics, I actually think Mao has a good chance to beat Yuna (assuming that Yuna may make mistakes). I wish her well.
    From this sentence, are you suggesting that you believe that Mao and other Japanese skaters benefit from JSU politicking? I just don't see that at all. I never feel the judges really favor Japanese skaters that much. The ones that do come on top at times (Mao, Dai, Miki) do because of their own abilities and talents. The Japanese skating federation don't use their influence to the extent the European and Russian skating feds do, even though they have the capability to do it now. And also about Mao's spins. I didn't hear many people complain about her levels she got for that, so I don't understand your comment on that.

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