Stojko opposes the ladies result | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
miki88 lol

I find your opinions to be pretty reasonable. It seems you're coming under fire in multiple discussions for them, though, hehe. I like YuNa's spirals...I love Mao's. From the judges' point of view though, it seems that positions aren't the only consideration (although to me, they are the most noticeable.) YuNa seems to be given credit for her edging and speed.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
miki88 lol

I find your opinions to be pretty reasonable. It seems you're coming under fire in multiple discussions for them, though, hehe. I like YuNa's spirals...I love Mao's. From the judges' point of view though, it seems that positions aren't the only consideration (although to me, they are the most noticeable.) YuNa seems to be given credit for her edging and speed.

Hehe. But what I can do? I just can't help expressing my opinions. :)

And to Ryoko, yes I understand your point.
 

Marrymeyunakim

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
I've never thought Yu-Na's spirals were bad; just not the same as other skaters like Mao. Don't blame Kim for utilising the current system such that she gets level fours anyway, taking advantage of her great edges and her speed.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
If that same spirals meets all other components (again, depth, speed, control...etc.) of a good spiral, why not.
All I am saying is that good position alone is not a measure of good spiral.
It is silly to say that some skaters, including yuna, never deserve level 4 on spiral sequence just because they aren't as flexible as sasha cohen.

And as for mao's music, what's chosen is what's chosen. People will need to get over it.
But do you understand my point?


I actually really like Yuna's spirals. Sure, her free leg isn't in a full split but her spirals are fast and have good control and just look nice. Carolina also has very nice spirals without having a full split. I often feel like the full split spirals (eg Sasha, Caroline) move very slowly which kinda diminishes the impact. Mirai is one skater who has a very flexible spiral positition while maintaining good speed.
 

Iscariot

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Regardless of the rotation issue, there is a major difference between Mao and Yuna's combos: Mao takes forever to setup her combo, and she just gets it done while Yuna goes at it at super-sonic speed, has amazing height on BOTH jumps and great flow of it. Doesn't that warrant higher GOES? Besides, Yuna's combo has a 0.5 difference in base value. That's almost 2.5 points difference right there.
Mao asada has amazing speed to, she can easily go to the other side of the rink with her speed, besides "takes forever"? So yuna does her start pose and then she is already jumping? Both take the same amount of time to set up their jumps, BTW no transitions on any onf them, because its a hard combination.
Cant believe people are saying mao does not have transition into the 3A, for god sake not even toya or midori had it.

Yuna was the winner but not with that score, thats score was just stupid, its should be at leats 2 points difference betwwen them not 5.
 
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sleepyjl

Guest
former Canadian medallist Elvis Stojko, suggested that Kim's marks were too high. He noted that Asada had successfully landed a triple Axel - she's the only woman who executes them regularly in competition - and got fewer marks than Kim's easier triple Lutz.
The argument is similar to the one over whether American Evan Lysacek should have won the gold medal without having landed a quad like his competitor Evgeni Plushenko.

"Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=50985.html#kim+yu+na+path+gold

I think another controversial result is about to be born..

This is just precious coming from the Celebrated Jumping Frog of Ontario County. Of course he's in favor of jumping over artistry, interpretation, musicality, spins, spirals, footwork, and basic skating skills. If not for his jumping he would have been coaching at his local rollerskating rink.
 

Tigger

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Elvis really needs to shut his mouth, becuase he's killing what little creditblity he's ever had and also hurting the sport to boot.

ITA w/whomever said the rule change that needs to happen in the Ladies SP is that they have the option to do either a double or a triple Axel. Just as the Men have.

As for how the marks went last night...Did Mao land the Triple Axel? Yes, however, it was a bit tight and the speed going into it and coming out of it into that double was slow. I, and I'm sure the Judges, have seen Mao do far better Triple Axels in the past, so I'm hoping *that* was compairsion they were making last night. As for the speed...I was shocked at just slow and creeping Mao was going into that last night. It reminded me of Sandhu's stalking of his Triple Axel and that's not a compairison Mao wants I'm sure.

She landed it, but didn't deserve the out of world GOE some think she deserves just for "landing" the thing. The GOE Mao got for what she did *last night*, was right for what she did.

One thing that's missing in this discussion...Regardless of what we all think, it really was lovely to see a smile on Mao's face as she was skating last night. I've missed that this season.
 
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sleepyjl

Guest
Elvis really needs to shut his mouth, becuase he's killing what little creditblity he's ever had and also hurting the sport to boot.

ITA w/whomever said the rule change that needs to happen in the Ladies SP is that they have the option to do either a double or a triple Axel. Just as the Men have.

As for how the marks went last night...Did Mao land the Triple Axel? Yes, however, it was a bit tight and the speed going into it and coming out of it into that double was slow. I, and I'm sure the Judges, have seen Mao do far better Triple Axels in the past, so I'm hoping *that* was compairsion they were making last night. As for the speed...I was shocked at just slow and creeping Mao was going into that last night. It reminded me of Sandhu's stalking of his Triple Axel and that's not a compairison Mao wants I'm sure.

She landed it, but didn't deserve the out of world GOE some think she deserves just for "landing" the thing. The GOE Mao got for what she did *last night*, was right for what she did.

One thing that's missing in this discussion...Regardless of what we all think, it really was lovely to see a smile on Mao's face as she was skating last night. I've missed that this season.

ITA with you on both points. The hissy fits about the score spread are getting annoying; let's focus on the fact that Mao finally looked happy for the first time since teaming up with Ursula... er, I mean Tatiana the Sea Witch... er, I mean Tarasova.
 
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edge31

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
miki88 lol

I find your opinions to be pretty reasonable. It seems you're coming under fire in multiple discussions for them, though, hehe. I like YuNa's spirals...I love Mao's. From the judges' point of view though, it seems that positions aren't the only consideration (although to me, they are the most noticeable.) YuNa seems to be given credit for her edging and speed.

Interesting that "edging" receives no GOE bullet in the spiral category. She should not get credit for this alone according to the rules. Perhaps they should add that category ALTHOUGH I think they are considering the edge a given since there is no positive mark for it but only a negative for poor edge quality.

I think Mao's seq has a little more flow than Yu-Na's. I also think aesthetically it is more pleasing - ie has better line overall.
My bullets come out 5-4 with Mao on top - but that still comes out to +2GOE. So no difference at the end of the day.
 

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
I have been following this thread and others since last night. Now that I have finally calmed down (and caught up on sleep) after all the excitement, here are my two cents:

I thought both Mao and Yuna did an amazing job. It was so refreshing to see the old Mao back! God have I have missed that Mao smile! And Yuna, what can I say? I though she was amazing as always, although a bit reserved. But who can blame her? After all the pressure and expectations, she delivered. I was so happy for her, but I expected an immediate outcry after her scores came up, and boy, did that happen.

IMHO the main problem with the "Yuna was overscored" croud (which I think intersects a lot with the "Plushy should have won" club) is that they are basing their assessment on what they think the scores "should" have been based on: Mao should have gotten more credit for the 3A, Plushy should have won because he had a quad, Mao's spins and spirals should have gotten more GOEs because they're prettier... etc. The main issue these arguments fail to acknowledge is that the scores are based on what the COP says the base values of the jumps and the criteria for + GOEs are. These are not always in agreement with what the fans think they should be, especially when those fan perceptions are heavily based on the 6.0 system. If you look at the COP requirements for high GOEs in spins and spirals you'll find that Yuna satisfies those requirements and is therefore rewarded accordingly. For example, for spirals, edge control and speed have more effect on GOEs than the beauty of the position. For spins, it's all about the centering, speed, change of edge/foot and number of different positions. Yuna is as good as Mao (if not better in some areas like speed, edging, positions held longer) as Mao. Assuming both Mao and Yuna and their coaches could read and count, it was their responsability to build up their programs to maximize points. Team Yuna did an excellent job in that regard, Team Mao did not (I seriously question TT's ability to add simple numbers).
Now that doesn't mean that the COP cannot be adjusted to reflect higher values for pretty positions, triple axels and quads, but this is not going to happen now, during the Qlympics. Changes can be made for following seasons and there are ways to go about suggesting and discussing those changes. For this season, the rules have been set. Play by them or you lose.

Where Yuna accumulates more points than Mao is in the quality of her jumps: She enters her jumps at high speed and has nice flow and positions out of them (check out that checked position out of the triple flip of you're wondering why she got more GOEs on that jump), her combo jumps are equal in height and cover almost 25 feet!! While Mao started her combo with a great 3A, her 2T barely lifted above the ice and almost screeched to a halt. Yuna's combo had 0.5 points extra in base value and she gained around 2.5 points over Mao in jump GOEs (1.5 for the combo and 1 for the flip, approximately). I think that was very fair. Add that to the 1.5 gain in PCs, which is due to Yuna's superior expression, speed, choreography and interpretation, and there you have it: 5 points.

In reality, I thought both were overscored by 1 or 2 points, but this has been happening across disciplines.

Sorry for the long post.. just had to get it off my chest. Congrats to Mao and Yuna for an outstanding job last night, although, for me, the night belonged to Joannie.
 
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gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I think the base value for quad and 3A is already high enough. (They increased the base values maybe 2 seasons ago?) However, I agree that combination jump score shouldn't be merely the sum of each jumps. Everybody knows doing 3Lz+3T is much more difficult than just doing them seperately. I don't have clear idea how to adjust them though.



As for Yuna's spins and spirals being not good, sorry, I find it ridiculous.
Here is NBC's Yuna and Mao head-to-head video.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/as...1c-50f1e53f35f1.html#kim+yu+na+mao+asada+head

Yuna's spins are obviously faster than Mao's here in this particular competition and their positions are just about the same. So many people complain about Yuna's leg position on layback spin and praise Mao's position at the same time. It puzzles me because it's not like Mao herself has total turn out and toe point either. When it comes to back position, actually Yuna is better. See for yourself. The only position that Mao is superior to Yuna is Biellmann in my opinion. I think Caroline, Mirai and Alissa are heavenly layback spinners but Mao? Nah.

And about spirals, I think they are both great. Having nice position is a wow factor on TV, but great speed and ice coverage is also a wow factor in the arena. (Believe me, it really is. :) )
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Interesting that "edging" receives no GOE bullet in the spiral category. She should not get credit for this alone according to the rules. Perhaps they should add that category ALTHOUGH I think they are considering the edge a given since there is no positive mark for it but only a negative for poor edge quality.

I think Mao's seq has a little more flow than Yu-Na's. I also think aesthetically it is more pleasing - ie has better line overall.
My bullets come out 5-4 with Mao on top - but that still comes out to +2GOE. So no difference at the end of the day.
1) good flow, energy and execution
2) good speed during sequence
3) good body line and full extension
4) minimal delay between spiral positions
5) good flexibility
6) creativity and originality
7) ability to attain positions and variations quickly and effortlessly
8) element matched to the musical structure

I'm pretty sure edging is part of the first bullet in terms of "execution", and that bullet is one that is credited to YuNa.
 

kyla2

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
I am not a Yu Na fan. I find her to be a cold, emotionless, full of herself skater and that is very off-putting to me. But she skated the complete package last night and deserved 1st placement. That is not to say that she has first rate spins, spirals and laybacks-she doesn't. But overall she was the best. I also agree with Stojko that Mao's triple axel combination has too low a point value. I have seen Mao do much better in the PCS area. Yu Na had her beat in PCS last night. The one person who was totally underscored was Mirai. I was thrilled for Joannie and I am praying for a great skate for her tomorrow night. My heart is with Joannie and if she could win the gold, I would be beyond ecstatic.
 

*Sniper*

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Elvis opposes another result???
How shocking and unprecedented!!!

While I do agree that the harder jumps should have higher base points than what the current system offers, he should really stop basing the entire performance on one or two jumps.
It's getting way too annoying.
 

formersk8ter

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
I am not a Yu Na fan. I find her to be a cold, emotionless, full of herself skater and that is very off-putting to me. But she skated the complete package last night and deserved 1st placement. That is not to say that she has first rate spins, spirals and laybacks-she doesn't. But overall she was the best. I also agree with Stojko that Mao's triple axel combination has too low a point value. I have seen Mao do much better in the PCS area. Yu Na had her beat in PCS last night. The one person who was totally underscored was Mirai. I was thrilled for Joannie and I am praying for a great skate for her tomorrow night. My heart is with Joannie and if she could win the gold, I would be beyond ecstatic.

ITA with your entire post.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
OT house-keeping/feedback - what's with the big spaces before quotes...oh and every time i reply in this thread i get a bunch of multi-quotes appearing where i've replied before??

Ant

no clue, will investigate, though.
 

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
no clue, will investigate, though.

not sure if this is of any help, but I get different layouts on my laptop and my office computer. My laptop screen is 15.4" and has Windows Vista while my office PC has a 24" screen and Windows 7.

Maybe it depends of the resolution?

ETA: I see the white spaces on my laptop but not on my office PC
 
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