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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    As much as I like Yu na's skating overall I've always wonder why they ignore her spins which are not very good to me. Do they really give her positive GOE's on all of her spins?
    Yes, + 0.8 on the layback and + 0.5 on the flying sit spin. For comparison Mirai got + 0.5 for the sit spin (and a + 1.1 on the layback, which makes me wonder, if that spin was worth only + 1.1, what do you have to do to get a +2 or +3? Honestly, I can't imagine, what is the highest GOE ever given for a spin?)

    I think too that Elvis has a point, 3a is much more difficult for the ladies and that should be reflected in the base value. (Which is not the same as saying that anyone doing a 3a should automatically win the competition, and I'm ok with Mao in 2nd, but the top two performances last night were almost equal imo and should have been scored closer.)

    And I think Elvis is very aware what the rules are under the COP, that is why he's speaking up, because he doesn't agree with that. (And he's not the only one obviously.)

  2. #122
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    Of course Stojko would have a problem with this, a surprise?

    I mean seriously I don't see what the big deal is, I did that judging online stuff, and Ya Na was still 5pts ahead and I gave Mao a generous GOE for being the only woman to do the 3axel, but she lacks against Ya Na in every other dept, speed/flow, spins, spirals...I mean seriously you really think one element should be enough to keep her within a point or two of Ya Na, no....

    If anyone was robbed being too far back for their performance it was Mirai Nagasu who delivered a wonderful performance, with the best spins of the competition, good flow and presentation and she is 15 pts from first place...now thats bs.

    Ya Na's marks were justified as were Asada, as far as 3rd thru 6th place, that is another story.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callystarr View Post
    Of course Stojko would have a problem with this, a surprise?

    I mean seriously I don't see what the big deal is, I did that judging online stuff, and Ya Na was still 5pts ahead and I gave Mao a generous GOE for being the only woman to do the 3axel, but she lacks against Ya Na in every other dept, speed/flow, spins, spirals...I mean seriously you really think one element should be enough to keep her within a point or two of Ya Na, no....

    If anyone was robbed being too far back for their performance it was Mirai Nagasu who delivered a wonderful performance, with the best spins of the competition, good flow and presentation and she is 15 pts from first place...now thats bs.

    Ya Na's marks were justified as were Asada, as far as 3rd thru 6th place, that is another story.
    Spins and Spirals? I don't agree Yuna has better spins and spirals than Mao. Doing the judging by yourself online provides a more objective comparison of the scores?

  4. #124
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    I think the bottom line is Plushenko & Asada did NOT use the system to their advantage, they KNEW the point differential of all the jumps before they stepped on the ice, Asada should know that she would have been better off doing a 3Flip/3Toe or a 3Flip/3Loop rather than the 3Axel/2Toe...

    This arguement is null and void, all of us who have followed this system for years has known the deal...furthermore...as far as Plushenko, his "gifts" in pcs....

    he lost! and deservingly so, it was a victory for figure skating for him to lose, he should have been 2nd in the SP too, perhaps 3rd (I thought Takahashi) was better...also.

  5. #125
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    Ya Na's marks were justified as were Asada, as far as 3rd thru 6th place, that is another story.[/QUOTE]

    Please don't tell me you think Joannie didn't deserve 3rd?

  6. #126
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    obviously some fans like these tacked on performance scores in the form of +GoEs. I think such fans should remark later that so and so won the Tech mark with the added performance GoE making the Tech Scores more like Tech plus a little Performance Scores added.

    What is wrong with doing away with the Tech Panel and having the score range from 0-10 to include everthing that is scorable for an element?

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Spins and Spirals? I don't agree Yuna has better spins and spirals than Mao. Doing the judging by yourself online provides a more objective comparison of the scores?
    Study figure skating more. Canadian commentators acknowledged that Yuna's speed, coverage and overall quality is better than Mao in step and spiral.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnnn View Post
    Study figure skating more. Canadian commentators acknowledged that Yuna's speed, coverage and overall quality is better than Mao in step and spiral.
    And so? Just because Canadian commetators says so, I have to agree with them? Yuna has more speed and coverage but I don't think she has better lines and positions than Mao and those things should be accounted for more. You have to realize that not everyone shares your opinions on everything.
    Last edited by miki88; 02-24-2010 at 05:36 PM.

  9. #129
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Well, it's definitely worth debating if a 3Axel-2Toe should be worth more than a 3Lutz-3Toe. The former was considered more difficult in the past.
    Maybe it's worth debating since so few women can do the 3a. OTH, Mao Asada doesn't do a 3-3 combination so that is clearly more difficult for her.

    I think you had an interesting thread somewhere that suggested that combinations shouldn't be just worth the sum of their parts (that is how it works now, no?) So maybe a lone 3a could be worth what it's worth now but if you tack on a double it gets a bonus that goes beyond just what that double is worth alone...

    As for Elvis ..... whatever. He obviously thinks a woman who skates clean and does a 3a should automatically win. By his reckoning, Tonya Harding is a better skater than Kristi Yamaguchi. Kimmie Meissner when she landed her 3a was a better skater than Michelle Kwan...

    Why even bother wearing costumes and skating to music? All I know is that I would definitely stop watching figure skating if we didn't have the Michelle Kwans, the Sashas, the Joannies, the Kristies, the Chen Lus, the Oksanas... (not that those girls couldn't jump but you know what I mean.)

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Technically, Mao pushed the sport in 2008. She was doing 3F-3T, 3F-3R and 3A. She pushed Yuna to go for the 3L-3T, partly.
    Fyi, it wasn't because of mao that yuna changed 3f-3t to 3lz-3t. It was the wrong edge call she got on 3flip at '08 COC. Flip, along with lutz, is one of the jumps yuna feels very confident with and by doing a single 3f she was trying to make it even more clear that her take off edge was correct. This is what she said in the interview.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Maybe it's worth debating since so few women can do the 3a. OTH, Mao Asada doesn't do a 3-3 combination so that is clearly more difficult for her.

    I think you had an interesting thread somewhere that suggested that combinations shouldn't be just worth the sum of their parts (that is how it works now, no?) So maybe a lone 3a could be worth what it's worth now but if you tack on a double it gets a bonus that goes beyond just what that double is worth alone...

    As for Elvis ..... whatever. He obviously thinks a woman who skates clean and does a 3a should automatically win. By his reckoning, Tonya Harding is a better skater than Kristi Yamaguchi. Kimmie Meissner when she landed her 3a was a better skater than Michelle Kwan...

    Why even bother wearing costumes and skating to music? All I know is that I would definitely stop watching figure skating if we didn't have the Michelle Kwans, the Sashas, the Joannies, the Kristies, the Chen Lus, the Oksanas... (not that those girls couldn't jump but you know what I mean.)
    I read Elvis' article and he didn't say Mao should have won because she did the 3A. In his predictions, he put Kim Yuna as first and he did say she was great. He just believes that a 3A combo should be worth more than it is now. That doesn't automatically mean that skaters who do 3A are better than those who don't. :sheesh:

  12. #132
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgel View Post
    Elvis as usual misses the point. The 3 axel gets significantly more points than the 3-lutz, and the differential is about right. The rule change that needs to be made to reward skaters for trying it in the short programme is the requirement to include a 2-axel. If it matched the men's - which allows double or triple axel - then Mao could do 3-axel, a 3-3 combo or 3-2 combo, plus a triple out of footwork. This would allow her to fully benefit from the additional points (2 axel- 3.5 points,; 3 axel 8.2 points; rest of programme can match other skaters for jumps). I don't think anyone could argue that this should not be changed.
    I like this idea. Why should a woman who lands a 3a be penalized by not getting to do as many triples as the the others in the short? Well, i guess they can theoretically but what are the chances that a woman will be able to do a 3a-3t any time soon?

    And it seems like an easier rule to change than shifting around the points.

    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I read Elvis' article and he didn't say Mao should have won because she did the 3A. In his predictions, he put Kim Yuna as first and he did say she was great. He just believes that a 3A combo should be worth more than it is now. That doesn't automatically mean that skaters who do 3A are better than those who don't. :sheesh:
    Oh, I thought he was just being quoted in that other article... do you have a link to his?
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 02-24-2010 at 10:11 PM.

  13. #133
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    Completely agree with Layfan.

    Mao's triple axel is beautiful but for her it is the easier jump than the 3-lutz on which she would get an automatic -2 or -3 deduction for a clear inside edge. Just because the triple axel is considered the most difficult jump doesn't mean that she should get a clear bonus, even when she's clearly lacking technical ability on her lutz (and salchow for that matter). Consider a skater with big 2a and huge 3Lz and compare with a skater who has a huge 3a and no lutz.

    I'm surprised to hear so many people complain about her GOE when she has not gotten absolutely skyrocket GOE's for her triple axel. Her triple axel is gorgeous but it has more to do with the speed of her rotation than her coverage and height in the air. Her 2-t is tacked on as an afterthought. I just wish Mao-chan had a better coach, one to help her think more strategically, work on the technical issues that feature in her strategy and better choreography.

  14. #134
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callystarr View Post
    I think the bottom line is Plushenko & Asada did NOT use the system to their advantage, they KNEW the point differential of all the jumps before they stepped on the ice.
    Actually the bottom line is that both are kind of green swan freaky jumpers.

    For Plushenko, apparently the quad TL is relatively secure while he's had trouble with the salchow (IIRC in 2006) and this season the lutz and flip. His 3lutz hasn't been secure at all over the season and he left the 3flip out of his olympic LP. His abiltiies have no particular wider application. He's overall a very consistent jumper but after 2004 or so he hasn't had a complete range he can count on.

    Asada is even more extreme. She can do the 3ax intermittently but she's never had the other five at the same time AFAICT. Her priority has always been adding more revolutions rather than solid technique. She was caught totally off guard with the increased vigor regarding edge calls and hasn't had any luck in addressing her flutz issues. I'm sure she'd _love_ to do a 3-3 combo in the short but what combo does she have a realistic chance of doing? The mystique of the 3ax covers up the fact that she's just not a very complete jumper (Kim isn't really either, but she's able to compensate for that with good program layout).

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by joesitz View Post
    obviously some fans like these tacked on performance scores in the form of +goes. I think such fans should remark later that so and so won the tech mark with the added performance goe making the tech scores more like tech plus a little performance scores added.

    What is wrong with doing away with the tech panel and having the score range from 0-10 to include everthing that is scorable for an element?
    nothing!! Bravo!!

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