Stojko opposes the ladies result | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Stojko opposes the ladies result

edge31

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
1) good flow, energy and execution
2) good speed during sequence
3) good body line and full extension
4) minimal delay between spiral positions
5) good flexibility
6) creativity and originality
7) ability to attain positions and variations quickly and effortlessly
8) element matched to the musical structure

I'm pretty sure edging is part of the first bullet in terms of "execution", and that bullet is one that is credited to YuNa.

Looking at the words used and the groupings of the first bullet I tend to see "execution" as the overall performance of the sequence - ie shape, pattern, size of the seq; any arm movements; any character involved; focus; etc. . Things that are more intangible.
To me, it seems that the edge quality is something that they don't want to get into evaluating as far as how good it is. There is a -GOE for poor edge quality and that is easy to see. But it's harder to say what degree of good edge quality should set the skaters apart. Especially when they all pretty much use the same pattern and large looping curves.
Plus sometimes a really good edge will kill the flow of a sequence which would make that grouping void itself...

In Yu-Na's case, I don't see any edges that I haven't seen before. She does the inside spiral but her edge is not so deep - the pattern and shape of her seq. preclude that.
But her general performance of the sequence was good. SO she gets the bullet but not for "edges".
 

Daniel5555

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
About jumps: I don't think I can judge it properly since I have not that much experience, but I think changing the value of a jump is a very serious deal. It's obvious that jumps have different difficulty, but it's also true that different skaters may find one jump easier than other. It's much harder for Yuna to do 3A while for Mao is may be harder to do 3Lz or 3-3 combination. So the jumps have to be balanced and the most important thing is to avoid overhyping the value of a certain jump.
I mean, we can't give a huge advantage to the skater that is natural jumper and can do, to say so, a quad, over the skater that can't do it, but has everything else much better.

Also the very high value of a certain element may push some skaters into learning it while harming other aspects of their skating. For example, if the value of the 3A was 10, then Yuna probably would push herself into learning it and as the result she could learn how to jump it with low consistency, but at the same time not having 3-3 at all, and that would be very harmful to her as a skater. That could be a possible outcome of this.

I think that really skating should progress into versatility rather than into particular types of jumps or combinations. But maybe you're right and the base value of some elements have to be raised a bit.

About spins and spirals of Yuna: I'm also tired of reading that they are bad. They are not bad. I agree that they are not looking as impressive as of some other skaters; and there are skaters that can't pass Nationals and they are doing them more beautifully. I think, that the explanation of this is that Yuna is not very flexible by nature. Probably initially she was less flexible than an average girl. It's a miracle, that she can do a Bielmann spiral, as someone already said... But she worked incredibly hard to achieve all those elements and as she does them accordingly to ISU guidelines, they should be scored high. I understand, that she still struggles while doing them, but what she can do? It's amazing how she does them with all the speed and ice coverage she gets, surpassing her initial limitations.
I think she really deserves some credit for this...
And personally I think that they are beautiful enough, while I admit, that some other skaters have them better, like Min Jung Kwak.
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
About spins and spirals of Yuna: I'm also tired of reading that they are bad. They are not bad. I agree that they are not looking as impressive as of some other skaters; and there are skaters that can't pass Nationals and they are doing them more beautifully. I think, that the explanation of this is that Yuna is not very flexible by nature. Probably initially she was less flexible than an average girl. It's a miracle, that she can do a Bielmann spiral, as someone already said... But she worked incredibly hard to achieve all those elements and as she does them accordingly to ISU guidelines, they should be scored high. I understand, that she still struggles while doing them, but what she can do? It's amazing how she does them with all the speed and ice coverage she gets, surpassing her initial limitations.
I think she really deserves some credit for this...
And personally I think that they are beautiful enough, while I admit, that some other skaters have them better, like Min Jung Kwak.

And I think she's still working at it (as you established). But it takes a lot of flexibility to do what Yuna does now. I would probably break a limb if I tried to do that leg up by my head spiral she does for the last one. I'm cringing thinking about it!
 

kyla2

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Thanks formersk8er. As for the person who is sick of reading that Yu Na's spins, spirals and laybacks are bad, you are mistaken. We aren't saying they are bad, but they are very average and should be judged accordingly. Many of us feel she is overscored. I am one of them. She is not judged objectively on many of her elements because she has speed, decent footwork and jumps. She is also a solidly clean skater, rarely making mistakes. That buys her a ton of goodwill from the judges, which in my opinion has the sum effect of artificially inflating her scores. In short, they overlook alot with Yu Na that they don't overlook in other skaters. Mao and Yu Na should have been smack dab next to each other after the SP without the 5 point spread (a 1 point would have been more like it).
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I agree with what many posts are saying, that both Yuna's triple-triple combos and Mao's triple-axel-double-toe combos should have higher base points.

I would also like to suggest that there should be a limitation on double jump combos, because demonstrating the ability to do double jump combos is not a reflection of the ability of the skater, particularly in elite competitions.
 

karenll

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
yunasashafan said:
IMHO the main problem with the "Yuna was overscored" croud (which I think intersects a lot with the "Plushy should have won" club) is that they are basing their assessment on what they think the scores "should" have been based on

Huh? Why is it a problem for people have opinions about what they watch, and why would you assume that people who think Yuna was overscored have no idea how CoP works? I've watched enough skating to know that CoP is as subjective, if not more so, than 6.0. (PCS, anyone?) It's a judged sport, always has been, always will be, and people are going to have opinions about it. Mao and Yuna both had clean, difficult shorts. To think they should have been closer is a perfectly valid opinion.
 
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miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Huh? Why is it a problem for people have opinions about what they watch, and why would you assume that people who think Yuna was overscored have no idea how CoP works? I've watched enough skating to know that CoP is as subjective, if not more so, than 6.0. (PCS, anyone?) It's a judged sport, always has been, always will be, and people are going to have opinions about it. Mao and Yuna both had clean, difficult shorts. To think they should have been closer is a perfectly valid opinion.

:thumbsup: I think all judging systems have faults and should be open to criticisms.
 

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
:thumbsup: I think all judging systems have faults and should be open to criticisms.

I did not say the system should not be criticised, it should. In fact, I did explicitly say that:

Now that doesn't mean that the COP cannot be adjusted to reflect higher values for pretty positions, triple axels and quads, but this is not going to happen now, during the Qlympics. Changes can be made for following seasons and there are ways to go about suggesting and discussing those changes. For this season, the rules have been set. Play by them or you lose.


My gripe is that often "the rules need to be adjusted to increase the value of the element that so-and-so is better at" is often confused with "so-and-so should have won this competition under the current version of the rules"
 

BlackAxel

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
I cant help but agree with Stojko. Even though his past comments about "ballet skating" rather than technical skating was something I disagreed with, I do believe that the 3A is undervalued. For Mao to go out there and complete the 3A is tremendous as only very few women have attempted it and actually landed it. In all I think that the 3A and the quad need to be merited with more recognition and points.

Also, I found the Kim's lead as over-marked. Yes, she was the better skater at the end of the night but definitely not 5 points better than Mao. If anything, I thought she would be at most 2 points higher than Asada.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Thanks formersk8er. As for the person who is sick of reading that Yu Na's spins, spirals and laybacks are bad, you are mistaken. We aren't saying they are bad, but they are very average and should be judged accordingly. Many of us feel she is overscored. I am one of them. She is not judged objectively on many of her elements because she has speed, decent footwork and jumps. She is also a solidly clean skater, rarely making mistakes. That buys her a ton of goodwill from the judges, which in my opinion has the sum effect of artificially inflating her scores. In short, they overlook alot with Yu Na that they don't overlook in other skaters. Mao and Yu Na should have been smack dab next to each other after the SP without the 5 point spread (a 1 point would have been more like it).

If you're such an expert on every technical element, why arent' you a judge?

Because every person here is saying it should be scored like this, or it should be scored like that, but how many of us are true experts? Can you tell by just LOOKING at a skater spin at normal speed (not slow-mo) what level his/her spin should get based on the COP guidelines?

No? Then please just stop.
 

karenll

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
I cant help but agree with Stojko. Even though his past comments about "ballet skating" rather than technical skating was something I disagreed with, I do believe that the 3A is undervalued. For Mao to go out there and complete the 3A is tremendous as only very few women have attempted it and actually landed it. In all I think that the 3A and the quad need to be merited with more recognition and points.

Also, I found the Kim's lead as over-marked. Yes, she was the better skater at the end of the night but definitely not 5 points better than Mao. If anything, I thought she would be at most 2 points higher than Asada.

For me, it's not even the value of the 3A that's the issue...it's the PCS. I don't understand how Yuna gets 8s and 9s in PCS and Mao and other skaters can't break past 7s. I don't think Yuna deserves lower PCS, I just think Mao and some of the other skaters deserve higher PCS.
 

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
I cant help but agree with Stojko. Even though his past comments about "ballet skating" rather than technical skating was something I disagreed with, I do believe that the 3A is undervalued. For Mao to go out there and complete the 3A is tremendous as only very few women have attempted it and actually landed it. In all I think that the 3A and the quad need to be merited with more recognition and points.

I agree with that. I think the 3A should have more value. I also think the value of a combo should be more than the sum of the jump values. Maybe they should have some percentage of the base value of the first jump added to the total. The more difficult the jump is, the harder it is to tag another jump after it.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I agree with that. I think the 3A should have more value. I also think the value of a combo should be more than the sum of the jump values. Maybe they should have some percentage of the base value of the first jump added to the total. The more difficult the jump is, the harder it is to tag another jump after it.

Case in point:

2Axel-2Toeloop-2Loop combination (6.30)
3Axel-2Toeloop (9.5)

There is only 3.2 point difference between the two, and when you consider that it is far easier to get positive GOEs on the former rather than the latter, the difference is actually less than 3 points.
 

Marrymeyunakim

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
No one has bothered to say that Yu-Na's triple lutz-triple toe was the FIRST of its kind to show up in a woman's SP, according to Michelle Kwan.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
No one has bothered to say that Yu-Na's triple lutz-triple toe was the FIRST of its kind to show up in a woman's SP, according to Michelle Kwan.

Yuna's triple lutz-triple toe loop is great and she deserves every point gets (and maybe even more, if the triple axel-double toe is going to get the points it deserves).
 

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
No one has bothered to say that Yu-Na's triple lutz-triple toe was the FIRST of its kind to show up in a woman's SP, according to Michelle Kwan.

I didn't know that. Slutskaya was known for 3-3s, so she didn't do it at some point? (I have no idea whether she did or not, just curious)
 

Iscariot

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Didnt Elene Gedevanisvilli do a 3LZ-3T at 2006 olympics short? I know it wasnt as impresive as Yuna, but i remember being a beautiful combination with high and good landing
 
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