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Thread: So, what is Elvis going to complain about this morning?

  1. #46
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    You're right. No matter how much higher the base point of a triple-axel would be, the skater would still need other triples to be competitive, though one less probably than those who can't do a triple-axel would need.

    What increasing the value of the triple-axel will do is that other skaters who can't do a triple-axel will not be able to make up for their jumping deficiency by using double-axel jump passes against triple-axel jumpers. This is what I have been griping on about the whole time, so just increasing the value of the triple-axel might do the trick.
    Sigh nothing is stopping triple axel jumpers from doing double axel passes to maximise points too... AND keeping their triple axels. Mao could easily do a instead of her 3flip/2loop a solo 3flip and do a double axel/double axel sequence. And guess what Mao would make more points. And she'd get to do her 2 3axels as well. But for whatever reason Mao has choosen not to do this. She's got nobody to blame there but herself.

    It amazes me that you want to criticize Yu-na when to be quite frank a lot of the people are using the double axel sequences to gain points on Yu-na. Yu-na could do a 3lutz/2toe/2loop, a double axel/3toe, and a 3flip sequence double axel and her base value would almost be same. Mao only does one difficult combination in her program a 3axel/2toe. Yu-na goes for two extremely difficult combinations in her program (more than anyone else) And yet you want to criticize Yu-na.

    I mean did you look at Miki's layout? Everyone's doing the 3flip seq double axels now. Why go for something more difficult like a double axel/3toe. Or even harder a 3lutz/3toe. But right Yu-na's the problem because she chooses to do a double axel instead of a 3loop (Just like Mao absolutely chooses to do a double axel instead a of a 3sal or a 3lutz) Yu-na is literally the only person in the top 5 who even went for a 3/3.
    Last edited by bekalc; 02-27-2010 at 10:57 PM.

  2. #47
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I don't know why more skaters don't try the 2A-3T combo. This combo plus 3Lz gets the same number of points as 3Lz+3T and 2A. Akiko Suzuki, for instance, uses it to come up to seven triples without a triple/triple.

  3. #48
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't know why more skaters don't try the 2A-3T combo. This combo plus 3Lz gets the same number of points as 3Lz+3T and 2A. Akiko Suzuki, for instance, uses it to come up to seven triples without a triple/triple.
    More are Mathman. But more are discovering the wonders of the easier double axel sequences. For example 3flip sequence double axel at the end of a program gets you 7.93 points. The harder double axel/3toe 8.25....

    To be honest they need to do something about combinations now, its frankly ridiculous. And thats why I find the issue of Mao is punished by these double axels to be ridiculous. Mao still gets a huge base value advantage by doing a triple axel. Its people like Yu-na and Rachael Flatt who go for 3/3s in their programs, who get screwed by these double axel sequences stuff. Because combinations aren't rewarded correctly at all. Yu-na loses base value by doing a double axel instead of a 3loop.

    To be honest Plushenko was stupid in COP to go for his Quadtoe/3toe in the long. You know why the guy should have just gone for the Quadtoe and at the end of his program done an easy double axel/3toe. His base value would have actually been higher because well its a lot easier to do a double axel/3toe at the end of your program than a 4/3. That's just seriously inane. And to quote Tarasova children can do double axel/3toes. I mean its difficult combo and yes the children have to be prodigies. But still.

    I get that they don't want a jumping contest only. But that doesnt' mean they can't reward people for difficult combinations fairly.
    Last edited by bekalc; 02-27-2010 at 11:08 PM.

  4. #49
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    What I don't get is why people think a 3A2T is harder than a 3Lz3T. For anyone at the senior level, the 2T is ridiculously easy and is honestly almost nothing in terms of jumping ability. This pretty much leaves the debate to 3A vs 3Lz3T. This is probably a lot more controversial as they both require a lot of jumping ability. There are many skaters who can do very nice 3A but can not do a 3Lz3T and vice versa. 3Lz3T needs a lot of flow coming out of the Lutz to get the triple Toe-loop in afterwards.The fact that Mao's axel is very average compared to past female 3A jumpers such as Midori. She prerotates and lands just within 1/4 with very limited speed coming out. Now with that being said very few females have ever done the 3A so the base value should definitely be raised up, however still not as high 3Lz3T. I think it would be fair that the 3A itself should be raised to 8.0.

  5. #50
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    Well, I for one thinks that Mao should get higher GOE on her axels than Evan, because hers are better than his! Mao's axels are just effortless and graceful even though she doesn't get the same height as Midori, but she still beats Evan.

  6. #51
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willywu View Post
    I think it would be fair that the 3A itself should be raised to 8.0.
    It is currently 8.2.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willywu View Post
    What I don't get is why people think a 3A2T is harder than a 3Lz3T. For anyone at the senior level, the 2T is ridiculously easy and is honestly almost nothing in terms of jumping ability. This pretty much leaves the debate to 3A vs 3Lz3T. This is probably a lot more controversial as they both require a lot of jumping ability. There are many skaters who can do very nice 3A but can not do a 3Lz3T and vice versa. 3Lz3T needs a lot of flow coming out of the Lutz to get the triple Toe-loop in afterwards.... Now with that being said very few females have ever done the 3A so the base value should definitely be raised up, however still not as high 3Lz3T. .
    That's what I've been thinking, that the 3lz3t is about as difficult and about as rare as the 3a. Probably not quite the same but close. I'm not sure which I'd put on top as far as difficulty, the discussions the last few days have raised a lot of good points (!), but I'm emerging from the debates with a new appreciation of the 3lz3t actually.

  8. #53
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Sigh nothing is stopping triple axel jumpers from doing double axel passes to maximise points too... AND keeping their triple axels. Mao could easily do a instead of her 3flip/2loop a solo 3flip and do a double axel/double axel sequence. And guess what Mao would make more points. And she'd get to do her 2 3axels as well. But for whatever reason Mao has choosen not to do this. She's got nobody to blame there but herself.

    It amazes me that you want to criticize Yu-na when to be quite frank a lot of the people are using the double axel sequences to gain points on Yu-na. Yu-na could do a 3lutz/2toe/2loop, a double axel/3toe, and a 3flip sequence double axel and her base value would almost be same. Mao only does one difficult combination in her program a 3axel/2toe. Yu-na goes for two extremely difficult combinations in her program (more than anyone else) And yet you want to criticize Yu-na.

    I mean did you look at Miki's layout? Everyone's doing the 3flip seq double axels now. Why go for something more difficult like a double axel/3toe. Or even harder a 3lutz/3toe. But right Yu-na's the problem because she chooses to do a double axel instead of a 3loop (Just like Mao absolutely chooses to do a double axel instead a of a 3sal or a 3lutz) Yu-na is literally the only person in the top 5 who even went for a 3/3.
    I would not like it for anyone, including Mao, Yuna or anyone else, when more double-axels are done to maximise points. It is a sorry day when the sport of figure skating does not make advancements.

    It was explained that the third double-axel was originally intended for those who were going to put two triple-triple combos to not be penalized for attempting this difficult program jump layout, so anyone who is not doing two triple-triples and is putting in a third double-axel is using it as a loophole in the rules to garner easy points.

    I admire Yuna for doing 3/3. I think more female figure skaters would do them except that CoP overpenalized underrotation to an extreme extent until last season---and I think there is a sense that it is still too overpenalized, and also, underrotation calls have been very inconsistent.
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-28-2010 at 12:20 AM.

  9. #54
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willywu View Post
    What I don't get is why people think a 3A2T is harder than a 3Lz3T. For anyone at the senior level, the 2T is ridiculously easy and is honestly almost nothing in terms of jumping ability. This pretty much leaves the debate to 3A vs 3Lz3T. This is probably a lot more controversial as they both require a lot of jumping ability. There are many skaters who can do very nice 3A but can not do a 3Lz3T and vice versa. 3Lz3T needs a lot of flow coming out of the Lutz to get the triple Toe-loop in afterwards.The fact that Mao's axel is very average compared to past female 3A jumpers such as Midori. She prerotates and lands just within 1/4 with very limited speed coming out. Now with that being said very few females have ever done the 3A so the base value should definitely be raised up, however still not as high 3Lz3T. I think it would be fair that the 3A itself should be raised to 8.0.
    Alot of professional figure skaters and commentators have gone on national tv and have said that 3a-2t is more difficult that 3lz-3t.
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-28-2010 at 12:12 AM.

  10. #55
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    What is the proper value of the 3A then? Judging from what the figure skaters and commentators said, it sounded like they thought the 3A should be worth at least 9.8--in which case, Mao's 3A-2T would be worth 11 versus Yuna's 3z-3t (10). But somehow, pairing a 9.8 jump with a 1.2 jump just doesn't really strike me as a "combination". In fact, if a 3A were to be valued at 9.8, there wouldn't be any point in doing it in combination as 9.8 would even be higher than a 3F-3T (9.5). Does everyone here think a triple axel should be worth more than a 3F-3T? I don't. As other posters here have said, it takes quite a bit of skill to maintain the speed necessary for the 3T at the end.

    Another thing, going through this thread it struck me that anyone who didn't know figure skating would probably think that Yuna and Mao were skating hacks... lol...

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Well, I for one thinks that Mao should get higher GOE on her axels than Evan, because hers are better than his! Mao's axels are just effortless and graceful even though she doesn't get the same height as Midori, but she still beats Evan.
    ITA No disrespect intended for Evan.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Alot of professional figure skaters and commentators have gone on national tv and have said that 3a-2t is more difficult that 3lz-3t.
    I'm certain that it is the 3A part and it is very much up for debate. So a lot of professional figure skaters and commentators think so, some also don't think so. Most importantly the ISU does not think so. Even when the points added together with GOE, no way Mao's 3A2T will surpass Yuna's 3Lz3T. I think Yuna and Kostner probably have the two most fluid and cleanest combos to date.

  13. #58
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingpunk View Post
    What is the proper value of the 3A then? Judging from what the figure skaters and commentators said, it sounded like they thought the 3A should be worth at least 9.8--in which case, Mao's 3A-2T would be worth 11 versus Yuna's 3z-3t (10). But somehow, pairing a 9.8 jump with a 1.2 jump just doesn't really strike me as a "combination". In fact, if a 3A were to be valued at 9.8, there wouldn't be any point in doing it in combination as 9.8 would even be higher than a 3F-3T (9.5). Does everyone here think a triple axel should be worth more than a 3F-3T? I don't. As other posters here have said, it takes quite a bit of skill to maintain the speed necessary for the 3T at the end.

    Another thing, going through this thread it struck me that anyone who didn't know figure skating would probably think that Yuna and Mao were skating hacks... lol...
    I've heard even higher numbers like 11~12 as being sufficient, given that GOEs will cancel out the advantage of the base point anyway.

    A triple-axel jumper will still need 3-3s to remain competitive against skaters who can do 3-3s. The only thing raising the value of the triple-axel will do is that other skaters who cannot do a triple-axel cannot depend on the double-axel to cancel out their inability to do a type of triple jump and remain competitive against a skater with triple-axel and at least 4 types of triples.
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-28-2010 at 03:58 AM.

  14. #59
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willywu View Post
    I'm certain that it is the 3A part and it is very much up for debate. So a lot of professional figure skaters and commentators think so, some also don't think so. Most importantly the ISU does not think so. Even when the points added together with GOE, no way Mao's 3A2T will surpass Yuna's 3Lz3T. I think Yuna and Kostner probably have the two most fluid and cleanest combos to date.
    Yeah, raising the base point of triple-axel is definitely in order.

    However, awarding difficult jump combos, 3-3s, 3a-2 is something that should and will happen as well?

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Yeah, raising the base point of triple-axel is definitely in order.

    However, awarding difficult jump combos, 3-3s, 3a-2 is something that should and will happen as well?
    I do agree with raising the axel's base value also because I want to see the quad get a higher base too. If they do raise the 3A to anything higher then 8 or 9, they will have to move the quad up too. 1T is 0.4, 2T is 1.3, 3T is 4.0, 4T is 9.8. Every rotation up the toe loop has been multiplied by a factor of around 3. Why not do it for the quad?

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