So, what is Elvis going to complain about this morning? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

So, what is Elvis going to complain about this morning?

skatingpunk

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
I've heard even higher numbers like 11~12 as being sufficient, given that GOEs will cancel out the advantage of the base point anyway.

11 or 12? That means a 3A-3T would be worth 15 or 16 and a QUAD would have to be worth at least 18-19 because it's that much harder. That to me sounds STUPID high. It's like making the luge track steeper and harder so the times will be faster and the fans more entertained. Meanwhile, sliders will continue to get killed and skaters will surely be injured.

Imagine 13 year-old boys practicing the quad all day long because they know that single element is worth close to 20 points. No one's going to practice anything else. Fundamentals like edge quality and speed, not to mention artistic merit, will all go out the window.

They can't value the 3A and the Quad to the point where that's all the skaters see and what audiences will surely come to demand.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Instead of increasing the base value that much, I'd like to see better factoring in GOE. Correct me if my understanding of the rules is wrong. But the easier the jump is, the more relative reward you get from GOE. GOE for steps and spins is factored by the level. But not much for jumps. IIRC, negative GOE is factored for difficult jumps, but positive GOE, not.
 

Johnnnn

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
There are plenty of practice clips where Mao lands all five triples, and Mao landed all five triples in competition last season. So by your own reasoning, Mao doesn't have any technical flaws. If anything, as Yuna hasn't landed a loop in competition in what, two seasons? it is more legit to say that Yuna suffers from technical flaws.

Mao NEVER landed clean triple lutz with outside edge in her career just like Sasha Cohen.

(Although sometimes flutz is ratified by tech, just like GPF 08 and US Nationals)

Also if you look at her triple sal, she jumps with her toe, which is not proper for edge jumps.

I would love to see that clip where Mao lands all five triples without any flaws.

Please give me the link.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Mao NEVER landed clean triple lutz with outside edge in her career just like Sasha Cohen.

(Although sometimes flutz is ratified by tech, just like GPF 08 and US Nationals)

Also if you look at her triple sal, she jumps with her toe, which is not proper for edge jumps.

I would love to see that clip where Mao lands all five triples without any flaws.

Please give me the link.

She did correct her edge on the lutz and got it ratified though a few times. Also, she did get her Sal ratified a few times she tried it. Anyways, it really doesn't matter what you think but the fact is she got those jumps ratified before (even if they were only a few times), but it still means she can do it in competition.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Mao NEVER landed clean triple lutz with outside edge in her career just like Sasha Cohen.

(Although sometimes flutz is ratified by tech, just like GPF 08 and US Nationals)

Also if you look at her triple sal, she jumps with her toe, which is not proper for edge jumps.

I would love to see that clip where Mao lands all five triples without any flaws.

Please give me the link.

You are entirely free to think that you know more about jumps than ISU judges on what constitutes proper triple jumps.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Now can I see the video?

Don't you understand what I was implying? You could get the videos, you would already have the videos---they've been on YouTube since last season---if you were only a neutral figure skating fan or an actual fan of Mao. Why would I, a fan of Mao, take the trouble to give you links to these videos since even after seeing them, you'd still only spout out some vitriol about Mao's jumping abilities. It doesn't matter what you think anyway. Your opinion would make no difference whatsoever to Mao's jumping capabilities and how they are judged in competition.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Instead of increasing the base value that much, I'd like to see better factoring in GOE. Correct me if my understanding of the rules is wrong. But the easier the jump is, the more relative reward you get from GOE.

That is a great point. I hadn't noticed that before, but I just looked it up to see how the numbers worked out. For a toe-loop, for instance, with "+1" GOE it goes like this.

1T: base 0.4, GOE 0.3 (75%)
2T: base 1.3, GOE 0.5 (38%)
3T: base 4.0, GOE 1.0 (25%)
4T: base 9.8, GOE 1.0 (10%)
 

Puppylove

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
I know this thread is about Elvis, so forgive me. BUT.

Apparently, Plush went on some Japanese TV programme AFTER the ladies final and said Mao should have been awarded more marks as she made history by landing 3 TAs in the Olympics.

While I know in my head that it is entirely within his rights to do so, it somehow doesn't leave a good impression in my mind. BTW, this has nothing to do with my opinion of the ladies event.

I blame Takahashi. If only he had landed that b****y quad and won the competition...
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
We also have an Olympic gold medalist without a triple loop...

Again, you can apply this to Yuna. She couldn't even land a single triple loop cleanly and to be fair Mao's toe pick got stuck in the ice while totally threw her off going into that jump.

Actually that was really interesting to me, let's look at the men:

Gold - no quad toe
Silver - no triple flip
Bronze - tried all triples and a quad, but had mistakes

Ladies:

Gold - No triple loop
Silver - No triple lutz and no triple salchow (but did have triple axels)
Bronze - tried all the triples bar the axel

Conclusion: a full set of jumps means absolutely nothing, missing jumps out or having "nemsis" jumps means sqaut if you can do what you very very well.

My personal opinion - great, isn't this what we've always been striving for? Under 6.0 jumps ruled, spins and steps were irrelevant, it was jumps that decided competition and nothing else. Is COP great? No not at all - but with a bit of re-working it seems to do the trick quite well. We had some pretty amazing skates from the podium finishers (and loads of others) that were clean. Ok so Daisuke fell on his quad and Mao had some isues with her toe-loop, but the skates were clean (at last!). COP asn't procuded many clean competitions, and if you'd have had Evan trying a quad, or the other ladies trying their nemesis jumps, or Joannie a triple axel, it wouldn't have been the same.

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Mao NEVER landed clean triple lutz with outside edge in her career just like Sasha Cohen.

(Although sometimes flutz is ratified by tech, just like GPF 08 and US Nationals)

Also if you look at her triple sal, she jumps with her toe, which is not proper for edge jumps.

I just wanted to jump in to say that every single jump be it toe-jump or edge jump comes off the toe. The toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice on take off and the first to hit the ice on landing because of the action of pushing off means that you roll up frmo the edge to the toe and vault off the toe - every single skater in the world from singles through to quads jumps this way. If you don't it causes errrors that results in nasty falls (usually off the back of the blade). The error of not coming off the toe in edge jumps are often called "waxel" on the axel and "wow-cow" on the salchow.

Ant
 

Sk8n Mama

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
My personal opinion - great, isn't this what we've always been striving for? Under 6.0 jumps ruled, spins and steps were irrelevant, it was jumps that decided competition and nothing else. Is COP great? No not at all - but with a bit of re-working it seems to do the trick quite well.
ITA. It's a way better system. In 6.0 V/M and D/W would have been 'paying their dues' this Olympics. They just need to tweak it a little. I'm okay with giving the jumps a higher value instead of doing it as a GOE percentage, so long as the value isn't so high that the jumps become the focal point of the program. I'm thinking 1-1.5 additonal for quads or 3 ax.

every single skater in the world from singles through to quads jumps this way. If you don't it causes errrors that results in nasty falls (usually off the back of the blade). The error of not coming off the toe in edge jumps are often called "waxel" on the axel and "wow-cow" on the salchow.

Or the edge slips out from under you on the loop and you fall flat on your a&& (done that one many times! LOL). Also, I've heard people on here commenting about cheating the axel because it comes around the circle at the take-off & wanting to say something before. The jump must follow the natural curve of the edge. You can't skate straight in and do an axel, it's impossible. If you doubt me, slow mo the axels you do like and you'll see the same thing. I haven't analyzed Mao's take-off to see if she's getting more than that natural edge take-off but I suspect she's not. You sure wouldn't do that on purpose to help with rotations-or at least in 15 years of skating, I never heard of that.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think Elvis makes points on the jumping aspects of figure skating. It is a SPORT! No?

most female fans are more interested in how a skater emotes during performance. Is it QUANTIFIABLE?

some female and male fans give the two aspects of figure skating equal importance? Yes?

some, like Elvis give the edge to difficulty. Why not?
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
I think Elvis makes points on the jumping aspects of figure skating. It is a SPORT! No?

most female fans are more interested in how a skater emotes during performance. Is it QUANTIFIABLE?

some female and male fans give the two aspects of figure skating equal importance? Yes?

some, like Elvis give the edge to difficulty. Why not?


I haven't really chimed in here yet, but my objection is that Elvis isn't giving the edge to difficulty — he's giving the edge to difficulty on only one component of a program, the jumps. He doesn't give a crap about the spins, or spirals or footwork. In fact, going by his arguments, these things should be worth relatively less than they are now — a viewpoint with which I fundamentally disagree. Prior to COP I thought skating was by and large going in a rather boring direction with program after program nothing but skating around setting up for jumps. Skaters can't just do that anymore, they will not be rewarded, and I say bravo. I think quads and triple axels are rewarded plenty at present and no increase is needed. It should never just be about one jump. Plushenko lost because his footwork was slow, his spins mediocre, his program front-loaded and his jumps, while landed, were almost all slightly off in one way or another. Asada lost because while she had triple axels, she also popped and struggled on other components. Neither of them won and neither of them should have.
 

chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
I know this thread is about Elvis, so forgive me. BUT.

Apparently, Plush went on some Japanese TV programme AFTER the ladies final and said Mao should have been awarded more marks as she made history by landing 3 TAs in the Olympics.

While I know in my head that it is entirely within his rights to do so, it somehow doesn't leave a good impression in my mind. BTW, this has nothing to do with my opinion of the ladies event.

I blame Takahashi. If only he had landed that b****y quad and won the competition...

Kristi Yamaguchi and someone else, can't remember who it was, were also on a program saying the same thing as Elvis--that the triple axel should garner more points. So why is it that only Elvis gets all this negative reaction to his OPINION?
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
I think Elvis makes points on the jumping aspects of figure skating. It is a SPORT! No?

most female fans are more interested in how a skater emotes during performance. Is it QUANTIFIABLE?

some female and male fans give the two aspects of figure skating equal importance? Yes?

some, like Elvis give the edge to difficulty. Why not?

I could go on and on at length at how utterly wrong/sexist/stupid the bit in bold is, but i think i'll refrain...

Ant
 

Ren

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I know this thread is about Elvis, so forgive me. BUT.

Apparently, Plush went on some Japanese TV programme AFTER the ladies final and said Mao should have been awarded more marks as she made history by landing 3 TAs in the Olympics.

While I know in my head that it is entirely within his rights to do so, it somehow doesn't leave a good impression in my mind. BTW, this has nothing to do with my opinion of the ladies event.

I blame Takahashi. If only he had landed that b****y quad and won the competition...

Concerning Mao's marks on her 3As: Whether or not 3As deserve a higher base value will be up to the ISU to decide when they convene after this competitive season. The thing is, we already have the rules in place during the Olympics and we have to abide by them. I am not an expert concerning GOEs so I will leave that alone. I understand where Plushenko is coming from and why he is frustrated, but I think he should have tried to work through the system (i.e. going through the proper channels). I'm with Tim Goebel on this one when he said it would be better if we could open dialogue with the ISU and invite the skaters, coaches and specialists to hear their opinions. Evgeni could definitely make his case there, and he could have the quad-trailblazing men (Stojko, Goebel, etc.) and for the triple, Mao and Midori. This would have made a much more favorable impression.

About Takahashi: Yeah, I know. But I can't really blame him, considering his surgery. I don't know if he'll ever perform his quad consistently again, or if he didn't have enough time to recover to perform that jump in Olympic competition. If he'd pulled a Shizuka, we wouldn't be having the Plushenko vs. Lysacek thing... Oh, well.
 
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Puppylove

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Kristi Yamaguchi and someone else, can't remember who it was, were also on a program saying the same thing as Elvis--that the triple axel should garner more points. So why is it that only Elvis gets all this negative reaction to his OPINION?

No, no, this is not a negative reaction to Elvis, but rather to what Plush did. In fact, my feeling on Elvis' comments is "shrug - that's his point of view". What made me frown was the fact that Plush, who had argued that he should've been the Oly champion not EL based on the fact he had landed a quad and EL hadn't (again, not particularly bothered, as I was personally rooting for Takahashi who derserved the bronze but certainly not higher based on that performance), went on Japanese TV to say in the context of the ladies final.

I don't have any problem with any commentators or retired athletes expressing their opinions on any events. I also wouldn't have had any problems with Plush if:

1. There had been no issue with him openly discrediting the person who had won the competition he had participated in prior to all this.
2. He had done this BEFORE the ladies event finished.
3. He always had some deep-rooted interests in ladies FS.
4. He always had been mates with Mao.
5. Mao had won the competition.

I'm sure FS fans in Japan were quite disappointed that Mao didn't win and quite naturally so. For him then to do what he did, the reaction it brings out in me is "Oh DEAR GOD, he's seen the chance and is at it AGAIN." I cannot even make an analogy, since I cannot imagine any of the ladies skaters, ice dancers, pairs, skiers, speed skaters etc. doing this, no matter how outraged they may have been about the outcome in their OWN event.

Maybe I'm a bit too old-fashioned about the whole sportsmanship thing...
 

Puppylove

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Concerning Mao's marks on her 3As: Whether or not 3As deserve a higher base value will be up to the ISU to decide when they convene after this competitive season. The thing is, we already have the rules in place during the Olympics and we have to abide by them. I am not an expert concerning GOEs so I will leave that alone. I understand where Plushenko is coming from and why he is frustrated, but I think he should have tried to work through the system (i.e. going through the proper channels). I'm with Tim Goebel on this one when he said it would be better if we could open dialogue with the ISU and invite the skaters, coaches and specialists to hear their opinions. Evgeni could definitely make his case there, and he could have the quad-trailblazing men (Stojko, Goebel, etc.) and for the triple, Mao and Midori. This would have made a much more favorable impression.


Precisely!


About Takahashi: Yeah, I know. But I can't really blame him, considering his surgery. I don't know if he'll ever perform his quad consistently again, or if he didn't have enough time to recover to perform that jump in Olympic competition. If he'd pulled a Shizuka, we wouldn't be having the Plushenko vs. Lysacek thing... Oh, well.


I know... Of course I don't blame him! I was delighted to see him skate as well as he did.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I dont know about base value changing cause how much it would change things, I think Goe became the new fashion in these Olympics. And the point in judging I dont get now more than pcs. Mao could have gotten 1.20 or 1.80 for her triple axels and I would still be ok or Yuna could have gotten 0.80 fr her spiral and I would have nothing to debate. Just examples.

I dont think they reward the exceptional with Goe or what it is done on ice as they see it, so since Mao had not much flow out 0.80 Goe was enough. When I think of Goe the first word that comes in mind is approximately. If they put Goe according to what they see, two really clean programs with all the jumps landed and nice flow, good extentions, great spins and artistry would have meant that Weir should have been the Olympic Champion as one friend wondered. (example again)
 
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