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Thread: So, what is Elvis going to complain about this morning?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I've heard even higher numbers like 11~12 as being sufficient, given that GOEs will cancel out the advantage of the base point anyway.
    11 or 12? That means a 3A-3T would be worth 15 or 16 and a QUAD would have to be worth at least 18-19 because it's that much harder. That to me sounds STUPID high. It's like making the luge track steeper and harder so the times will be faster and the fans more entertained. Meanwhile, sliders will continue to get killed and skaters will surely be injured.

    Imagine 13 year-old boys practicing the quad all day long because they know that single element is worth close to 20 points. No one's going to practice anything else. Fundamentals like edge quality and speed, not to mention artistic merit, will all go out the window.

    They can't value the 3A and the Quad to the point where that's all the skaters see and what audiences will surely come to demand.

  2. #62
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Instead of increasing the base value that much, I'd like to see better factoring in GOE. Correct me if my understanding of the rules is wrong. But the easier the jump is, the more relative reward you get from GOE. GOE for steps and spins is factored by the level. But not much for jumps. IIRC, negative GOE is factored for difficult jumps, but positive GOE, not.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    There are plenty of practice clips where Mao lands all five triples, and Mao landed all five triples in competition last season. So by your own reasoning, Mao doesn't have any technical flaws. If anything, as Yuna hasn't landed a loop in competition in what, two seasons? it is more legit to say that Yuna suffers from technical flaws.
    Mao NEVER landed clean triple lutz with outside edge in her career just like Sasha Cohen.

    (Although sometimes flutz is ratified by tech, just like GPF 08 and US Nationals)

    Also if you look at her triple sal, she jumps with her toe, which is not proper for edge jumps.

    I would love to see that clip where Mao lands all five triples without any flaws.

    Please give me the link.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnnn View Post
    Mao NEVER landed clean triple lutz with outside edge in her career just like Sasha Cohen.

    (Although sometimes flutz is ratified by tech, just like GPF 08 and US Nationals)

    Also if you look at her triple sal, she jumps with her toe, which is not proper for edge jumps.

    I would love to see that clip where Mao lands all five triples without any flaws.

    Please give me the link.
    She did correct her edge on the lutz and got it ratified though a few times. Also, she did get her Sal ratified a few times she tried it. Anyways, it really doesn't matter what you think but the fact is she got those jumps ratified before (even if they were only a few times), but it still means she can do it in competition.

  5. #65
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnnn View Post
    Mao NEVER landed clean triple lutz with outside edge in her career just like Sasha Cohen.

    (Although sometimes flutz is ratified by tech, just like GPF 08 and US Nationals)

    Also if you look at her triple sal, she jumps with her toe, which is not proper for edge jumps.

    I would love to see that clip where Mao lands all five triples without any flaws.

    Please give me the link.
    You are entirely free to think that you know more about jumps than ISU judges on what constitutes proper triple jumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    You are entirely free to think that you know more about jumps than ISU judges on what constitutes proper triple jumps.
    Now can I see the video?

  7. #67
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnnn View Post
    Now can I see the video?
    Don't you understand what I was implying? You could get the videos, you would already have the videos---they've been on YouTube since last season---if you were only a neutral figure skating fan or an actual fan of Mao. Why would I, a fan of Mao, take the trouble to give you links to these videos since even after seeing them, you'd still only spout out some vitriol about Mao's jumping abilities. It doesn't matter what you think anyway. Your opinion would make no difference whatsoever to Mao's jumping capabilities and how they are judged in competition.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Instead of increasing the base value that much, I'd like to see better factoring in GOE. Correct me if my understanding of the rules is wrong. But the easier the jump is, the more relative reward you get from GOE.
    That is a great point. I hadn't noticed that before, but I just looked it up to see how the numbers worked out. For a toe-loop, for instance, with "+1" GOE it goes like this.

    1T: base 0.4, GOE 0.3 (75%)
    2T: base 1.3, GOE 0.5 (38%)
    3T: base 4.0, GOE 1.0 (25%)
    4T: base 9.8, GOE 1.0 (10%)

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    I know this thread is about Elvis, so forgive me. BUT.

    Apparently, Plush went on some Japanese TV programme AFTER the ladies final and said Mao should have been awarded more marks as she made history by landing 3 TAs in the Olympics.

    While I know in my head that it is entirely within his rights to do so, it somehow doesn't leave a good impression in my mind. BTW, this has nothing to do with my opinion of the ladies event.

    I blame Takahashi. If only he had landed that b****y quad and won the competition...

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    We also have an Olympic gold medalist without a triple loop...

    Again, you can apply this to Yuna. She couldn't even land a single triple loop cleanly and to be fair Mao's toe pick got stuck in the ice while totally threw her off going into that jump.
    Actually that was really interesting to me, let's look at the men:

    Gold - no quad toe
    Silver - no triple flip
    Bronze - tried all triples and a quad, but had mistakes

    Ladies:

    Gold - No triple loop
    Silver - No triple lutz and no triple salchow (but did have triple axels)
    Bronze - tried all the triples bar the axel

    Conclusion: a full set of jumps means absolutely nothing, missing jumps out or having "nemsis" jumps means sqaut if you can do what you very very well.

    My personal opinion - great, isn't this what we've always been striving for? Under 6.0 jumps ruled, spins and steps were irrelevant, it was jumps that decided competition and nothing else. Is COP great? No not at all - but with a bit of re-working it seems to do the trick quite well. We had some pretty amazing skates from the podium finishers (and loads of others) that were clean. Ok so Daisuke fell on his quad and Mao had some isues with her toe-loop, but the skates were clean (at last!). COP asn't procuded many clean competitions, and if you'd have had Evan trying a quad, or the other ladies trying their nemesis jumps, or Joannie a triple axel, it wouldn't have been the same.

    Ant

  11. #71
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnnn View Post
    Mao NEVER landed clean triple lutz with outside edge in her career just like Sasha Cohen.

    (Although sometimes flutz is ratified by tech, just like GPF 08 and US Nationals)

    Also if you look at her triple sal, she jumps with her toe, which is not proper for edge jumps.
    I just wanted to jump in to say that every single jump be it toe-jump or edge jump comes off the toe. The toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice on take off and the first to hit the ice on landing because of the action of pushing off means that you roll up frmo the edge to the toe and vault off the toe - every single skater in the world from singles through to quads jumps this way. If you don't it causes errrors that results in nasty falls (usually off the back of the blade). The error of not coming off the toe in edge jumps are often called "waxel" on the axel and "wow-cow" on the salchow.

    Ant

  12. #72
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    My personal opinion - great, isn't this what we've always been striving for? Under 6.0 jumps ruled, spins and steps were irrelevant, it was jumps that decided competition and nothing else. Is COP great? No not at all - but with a bit of re-working it seems to do the trick quite well.
    ITA. It's a way better system. In 6.0 V/M and D/W would have been 'paying their dues' this Olympics. They just need to tweak it a little. I'm okay with giving the jumps a higher value instead of doing it as a GOE percentage, so long as the value isn't so high that the jumps become the focal point of the program. I'm thinking 1-1.5 additonal for quads or 3 ax.

    every single skater in the world from singles through to quads jumps this way. If you don't it causes errrors that results in nasty falls (usually off the back of the blade). The error of not coming off the toe in edge jumps are often called "waxel" on the axel and "wow-cow" on the salchow.
    Or the edge slips out from under you on the loop and you fall flat on your a&& (done that one many times! LOL). Also, I've heard people on here commenting about cheating the axel because it comes around the circle at the take-off & wanting to say something before. The jump must follow the natural curve of the edge. You can't skate straight in and do an axel, it's impossible. If you doubt me, slow mo the axels you do like and you'll see the same thing. I haven't analyzed Mao's take-off to see if she's getting more than that natural edge take-off but I suspect she's not. You sure wouldn't do that on purpose to help with rotations-or at least in 15 years of skating, I never heard of that.
    Last edited by Sk8n Mama; 03-01-2010 at 10:29 AM.

  13. #73
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I think Elvis makes points on the jumping aspects of figure skating. It is a SPORT! No?

    most female fans are more interested in how a skater emotes during performance. Is it QUANTIFIABLE?

    some female and male fans give the two aspects of figure skating equal importance? Yes?

    some, like Elvis give the edge to difficulty. Why not?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I think Elvis makes points on the jumping aspects of figure skating. It is a SPORT! No?

    most female fans are more interested in how a skater emotes during performance. Is it QUANTIFIABLE?

    some female and male fans give the two aspects of figure skating equal importance? Yes?

    some, like Elvis give the edge to difficulty. Why not?

    I haven't really chimed in here yet, but my objection is that Elvis isn't giving the edge to difficulty — he's giving the edge to difficulty on only one component of a program, the jumps. He doesn't give a crap about the spins, or spirals or footwork. In fact, going by his arguments, these things should be worth relatively less than they are now — a viewpoint with which I fundamentally disagree. Prior to COP I thought skating was by and large going in a rather boring direction with program after program nothing but skating around setting up for jumps. Skaters can't just do that anymore, they will not be rewarded, and I say bravo. I think quads and triple axels are rewarded plenty at present and no increase is needed. It should never just be about one jump. Plushenko lost because his footwork was slow, his spins mediocre, his program front-loaded and his jumps, while landed, were almost all slightly off in one way or another. Asada lost because while she had triple axels, she also popped and struggled on other components. Neither of them won and neither of them should have.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puppylove View Post
    I know this thread is about Elvis, so forgive me. BUT.

    Apparently, Plush went on some Japanese TV programme AFTER the ladies final and said Mao should have been awarded more marks as she made history by landing 3 TAs in the Olympics.

    While I know in my head that it is entirely within his rights to do so, it somehow doesn't leave a good impression in my mind. BTW, this has nothing to do with my opinion of the ladies event.

    I blame Takahashi. If only he had landed that b****y quad and won the competition...
    Kristi Yamaguchi and someone else, can't remember who it was, were also on a program saying the same thing as Elvis--that the triple axel should garner more points. So why is it that only Elvis gets all this negative reaction to his OPINION?

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