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- Feb 16, 2010
I don't think there should be a cap on either what to spend or what to charge - skating is not a necessity.
Should the ISU regulate how much money amateur skaters can spend for training?
- Thread starter bethissoawesome
- Start date
Your the one who used Yu-na as an example. Why not bring up Mao's private rink? Yu-na didn't go to train with Orser fulltime unti after the Grand Prix Final. He says this in multiple interviews.
Yes Yu-na has a top coaching staff, yes after her Junior World title the Korean Federation wanted to get her some top coaches. Why the heck wouldn't they? But once again, your ignoring how difficult it was for Yu-na to even become a Junior World champion. The deck was absolutely stacked against her. Essentially her federation started helping her after she became successful. And you do realized that Yu-na literally funds the Junior program in Korea?
Yes it sucks how expensive this sport is. But people forget that choregraphers, coaches have to make a living too. That's life.
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- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
There always is an example. The only reason I picked Yu-Na is because her coaches, endorsements, and achievements are more notable (and most importantly citable), and her programs show how flawlessly CoP-friendly choreography is infused in her programs. This doesn't make what Yu-Na has done any less noteworthy and amazing. Just because she has a team to train her full time and a great choreographer isn't what makes her go down and lay it all out on the ice and truly own the performance. She could have gone into the Olympics with that same staff and fallen and failed to medal had she been less of a competitor and athlete. Yes, I know the hardships Yu-Na faced growing up, and yes I know all about her charity work (I was the one who posted about it). Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop taking this as an attack on Yu-Na: it's NOT. I adore Yu-Na, I'm thrilled with all that she has accomplished and think she is a great inspiration to others, charitable and gracious. None of this is an attack on Yu-Na; it's simply questioning a system that is beginning to benefit the few that are privy to its nuances and wondering what it would be like if other skaters had similar experienecs with great choreographers and coaches. THAT IS ALL.
And, alas, you are still wrong about when Brian Orser, David Wilson, and Yu-Na teamed up (the summer of 2006, therefore right after the '05-'06 season before Yu-Na made her Senior lnternational debut. Here is the article so you can see for yourself: http://www.ifsmagazine.com/archive/2007/DECEMBER/INDEX.PHP ...
or if you don't want to read the whole thing: "Kim’s homeland coach Se-Yol Kim decided a change of training venue might revive the competitive spark in her young protégé and sent Kim to Canada to work with choreographer David Wilson during the summer of 2006.
After three months at the Toronto Cricket Skating and Curling Club (TCSCC), Kim knew she had found the perfect training environment and decided to make it her full-time training base. The young prodigy approached skating director Brian Orser and asked him to take on the duties as her full-time coach. "
AND
"When Kim made her debut in the senior ranks at 2006 Skate Canada, Orser also made his coaching debut at the boards."
As I think of financial issues in FS, it actually starts at the very beginning. FS is a very expensive sport and only who can afford that start and continue. But I don't know how to change it.
Financial investments are expected to yield better competitive outcomes. That holds true in many areas, whether it be sport, science, political campaign etc etc. It's not just money. But with that money, you can invest in quality human resources etc. That matters most. You got to have brilliant people in your team.
To get financial endorsements, you have to have your work known and be supported. People don't invest in what they think unimportant.
I read an interview with Machiko Yamada, who is a former coach of Midori, Yuari, Yoshie Onda, Mao, and current Kanako Murakami, saying that her mission is not to train elite skaters, but to promote the sport in ordinary ppl (A recent issue of a sport magazine called Number). Machiko acknowledges Midori for contributing to the popularity of FS in ordinary ppl. Midori is from a single-parent family with financial disadvantages. Then when her family situation came to be known, the image of FS changed from an extremely expensive sport only for upper-class families to the one that is also for a girl next door.
In that article, a parent of her student says that Machiko is considerate about charges so that ordinary workers can afford lessons (I don't know how "ordinary" this parent's salary is though, in the culture of modesty).
I am sure that Machiko could charge ridiculously expensive lessons because of her brilliant career as a coach (I knew how much a former olympian could charge even without ever growing big students like these....), but if I believe what this parent says, and I also acknowledge what she actually did to Midori, it sounds like she doesn't (at least to those who cannot afford) according to the article.
Financial investments are expected to yield better competitive outcomes. That holds true in many areas, whether it be sport, science, political campaign etc etc. It's not just money. But with that money, you can invest in quality human resources etc. That matters most. You got to have brilliant people in your team.
To get financial endorsements, you have to have your work known and be supported. People don't invest in what they think unimportant.
I read an interview with Machiko Yamada, who is a former coach of Midori, Yuari, Yoshie Onda, Mao, and current Kanako Murakami, saying that her mission is not to train elite skaters, but to promote the sport in ordinary ppl (A recent issue of a sport magazine called Number). Machiko acknowledges Midori for contributing to the popularity of FS in ordinary ppl. Midori is from a single-parent family with financial disadvantages. Then when her family situation came to be known, the image of FS changed from an extremely expensive sport only for upper-class families to the one that is also for a girl next door.
In that article, a parent of her student says that Machiko is considerate about charges so that ordinary workers can afford lessons (I don't know how "ordinary" this parent's salary is though, in the culture of modesty).
I am sure that Machiko could charge ridiculously expensive lessons because of her brilliant career as a coach (I knew how much a former olympian could charge even without ever growing big students like these....), but if I believe what this parent says, and I also acknowledge what she actually did to Midori, it sounds like she doesn't (at least to those who cannot afford) according to the article.
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Yes but Orser was only a consultant with Yu-na at Skate Canada. He mentioned that in his NBC interview. And I remember Orser becoming her fulltime coach after Grand Prix Final because there was this big stink about how angry the coach she had was about Yu-na leaving her to train fulltime with Orser. It was this huge thing back then.
But the thing is once again even before Yu-na went to Orser she already had her 3flip/3toe and her double axel/3toe, she landed those at Junior worlds championship. Yes Yu-na has an advantage now with top coaches, but it wasn't always that way. I read somewhere that Yu-na learned a lot of the triples from videotape.
All of Yu-nas top coaches have yes made her a lot better than she was. But even before Yu-na went to the senior level everyone thought that Yu-na and Mao were going to be the next big rivalry.
I'm just defending Yu-na because I felt it was really unfair to use someone who had to learn the jumps on videotape, as an example of having an unfair competitive advantage...And normally too with more federation support/money comes more federation control as well.
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- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
I wish more coaches, choreographers, and specialists would contribute to the sport in that way. It really struck me that someone like Johnny Weir, although nowhere near as successful or popular as other skaters but still a 3-time National Champion, World Medalist, and two time Olympian, still struggles with financing his skating career. And as long as a skater has to put down 5 figure paychecks to a choreographer for one program, that isn't going to change. And he has more additional money coming from shows during the off-season and prize money from winning or placing at competitions than (what I would say is) the majority of skaters, who fail to place in competition and don't get their extra prize money or aren't invited or don't have an agent that can negotiate performances during the off-season to pad their pockets a bit more.
The other sad thing was a moment when he contemplates life after figure skating, saying figure skating is the only thing he is "truly good at," so what comes after it? (In pure Johnny humor, he contemplates whether or not he will have to learn to make a latte lol). There's continuing education, but not everyone is granted a scholarship and if you have paid so much for the figure skating that came before, that creates more financial troubles, just skating in shows, but that also isn't an opportunity afforded to every skater. It's almost a double whammy... you pay for your training as an amateur figure skater, and then you might have to shell out even more cash to get a coach or choreographer to take you to the next level. Then it's whether or not you can produce the results of that when it counts, and even if you can, that doesn't automatically grant you instant fame and a huge fan base. If that scenario plays out, and I'm sure it does (with or without the extra coaching, etc.) for many figure skaters. How many people would pay to see the bottom flight of skaters (or those that don't even make it to the LP) at a show when they probably don't even recognize the name? "Sasha Cohen" in lights might attract a flock of people to a professional skating show, but would "Anastasia Gimazetdinova," "Anna Jurkiewicz," or even "Yan Liu?"
I guess that will always be the sad underside of figure skating beneath the sparkly costumes and bright lights. :sigh:
Yes, this sport costs a lot. This is bothering me, but how come skaters here in America don't get the endorsements or commercial deals say Yuna and Mao. They're big names in their home country, yet some of the skaters here in North America aren't as known....
About Mao- She seems to be making 500,000 USD per commercial, yet JSF collects a lot of it. JSF pays for her staff and other things, I believe. However the private rink was specially made for her and also they had installed cameras in the rink for her to see herself skate and make adjustments.
Yuna's case is different. She came from a relatively disadvantaged family, yet she has found her way to become an icon in South Korea.
Both of these ladies are examples of what could happen if you're huge. I don't think skaters here in NA can make money compared to Mao and YuNa. Can somebody tell me why people don't choose skaters for commercials in NA? :X
About Mao- She seems to be making 500,000 USD per commercial, yet JSF collects a lot of it. JSF pays for her staff and other things, I believe. However the private rink was specially made for her and also they had installed cameras in the rink for her to see herself skate and make adjustments.
Yuna's case is different. She came from a relatively disadvantaged family, yet she has found her way to become an icon in South Korea.
Both of these ladies are examples of what could happen if you're huge. I don't think skaters here in NA can make money compared to Mao and YuNa. Can somebody tell me why people don't choose skaters for commercials in NA? :X
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- Dec 12, 2005
☆Genie;481735 said:
The biggest would be that the celebrity culture in Japan and Korea is far different from North America... unification of the people... also Yu-Na being the first conteder in competitive figure skating for South Korea.... the rise of figure skating in Japan through icons like Midori Ito, Yuka Sato, Shizuka Arakawa. Female athletes are just not put on the same level as other celebrities from music or film in NA; in Japan and Korea, Mao Asada and Yu-Na Kim can reach above and beyond the popularity of Britney Spears in NA during her prime. It's just very different culturally.
☆Genie;481735 said:
Why not? FS seems a perfect match for the US mainstream culture and the US has traditionally been very strong.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
I don't think there is anyway for regulation to come into this legally in democratic countries like the USA where the goverment has no finger in sports. Sure, it is not fair that skaters with a lot of money have all the opportunities. Life is not fair. At all. But where there is a will there is a way. Michelle's parents could not even afford lessons but somehow she was able to become the most decorated skater ever.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
Exactly. Not only is YuNa's current status an unintelligent example to use to illustrate a so-called "general point" about unfair resource advantages, beth continues to be misinformed.
Clearly you don't, and doing lip-service to them isn't the same thing as appreciating them. Your words do not reflect anyone who knows and respects YuNa's history.
Really? You expect anyone that is a YuNa fan to make a point like that, or to believe they would? Also, if it is that easy to make an Olympic Gold Medalist, I have to wonder why more countries and national figure skating programs/associations around the world that have more money than South Korea's never did. I don't care what you claim your intentions are, or aren't. Domnina and Shabalin said their OD wasn't an "attack" on or "insult" to the Aboriginals, but the Aboriginals said otherwise. Your words are an attack on YuNa: her hard work, her talent, and the sacrifices made by her family. She's lucky she made it. If anything, it was probably the fact that the Figure Skating environment in S. Korea is so dismal that YuNa was able to set herself apart--due to her talent and her willingness to tackle all the obstacles she faced.
I'm pretty fed up of people the last few days saying how they "like her skating" (but hate her personality) or "adore her" (but give no credit to her hard work and struggles over the years) or think she's "talented" (but keeps missing her 3-3 or doesn't have clean performances), etc. "Poor girl" and all the pressure put on her by her nasty fans and country, too, they would have burned her at the stake if she didn't earn that Gold.
I'd prefer if you could stop talking about YuNa if you can. You have almost nothing to say about her that comes across as sincere praise. It's all a bunch of "she's awesome, but--".
Just saying.
And like I said, if you want everything to be fair fair fair, then the whole world should become a single Communist nation.
People can break through differences in advantages or headstarts. Any true YuNa fan understands this, because that is what she did, and it is one of the most remarkable things about her (more than her skating, in my honest opinion). You don't seem to think so, which is why I guess you are making these suggestions.
Coaches can only work with the tools they have. They can help a skater reach the best of their ability. But you can't turn just anyone into a top skater. Talent/hard work matter as well. In fact Orser said in an interview that he suspects a lot of coaches feel "she could already do the 3flip/3toe" before he got her. I.e the idea that anyone could have taken someone as skilfull as Yu-na was, polish her up and make her a champion. In fact to be honest I think a lot of people are far more convinced now about Orser's brilliance as a coach by seeing how much Gao has improved since she went to him.
When Yu-na was about 11? She won Triglav that was her first big coming out party and people were shocked because she beat the US Novice champion, and I know eventually if not already that person was coached by Frank Carroll. A coach that was far more experienced at creating champions than Yu-na's coaches at the time.
I agree that it is very difficult for skaters, but to use American skaters as the ones most hurting from the system is just soo not fair.
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- Dec 12, 2005
ITA. I don't think it is the skaters from the US that are hurting from this... it is the skaters from European (specifically Eastern Europe) countries and countries that were former USSR territories that are the ones suffering. But what I'm surprised no one has mentioned is the fact that it would benefit skaters (particularly those on the Junior circuit or competing nationally in lower ranks) that don't have the same access to coaches and rinks that North American skaters have. That's the flip side, and if you want to use young Yu-Na as an example too, had she been from a country who didn't rise to support her, by allowing her to have equal training opportunities as well. Yu-Na almost decided to retire before entering the senior ranks, had she done so, her family would have been very set back financially, but if there were a cap or if the coach Yu-Na needed to rekindle her fire for figure skating because they would be equally afordable, maybe a situation or crossroads like that never would have occurred.
I apologized to bek, and I'll apologize again if it seems the point of this was to belittle Yu-Na. It's not... I used her as an example (once again) because all of the material on her coaching changes, endorsements, and improvements are the most noticable and the most citable, with articles an interviews that back up the accuracy of the statements. I thought about using Mao as well, but couldn't find clear enough sources that state her net income from endorsements other than just a list of her endorsers, and her various coaching changes among showing up to a competition without a coach makes that end difficult as well, as does her programs which are not quite as fine-tuned to CoP as Yu-Na's. I've been following Yu-Na's skating career since her first place finish in Croatia back in '03, I believe. And the lump of mud comment was meant to be funny, I'm sorry it offended. Although I do believe her coaching team could put together unbelievable programs, but I don't believe you would find another skater who could shoulder the burden, rise to her coaches' and country's expectations, and win the OGM. And, no, I'm not just spitting things out... try to find a post in which I bashed her. I was thrilled that she got the OGM, with two spectacular programs that were both spot-on clean and beautiful. That's something most people can't say about almost any medal in their collection, and to have be an Olympic medal is phenomenal.
And again, this is just a post pondering what figure skating would be like if all skaters were able to work with coaches solely dedicated to them or with a choreographer that really knew how to work the system for them. It's a thread wondering if there is a way for it to be done, and if it could be (even if it is just purely fantasy), what it would be like and how it could change figure skating. It's not a thread about Yu-Na Kim, nor is it a thread about poor circumstances for North American skaters. It's just a general thread about competitive figure skating. No more, no less.
I think it depends on what the society wants. In former Communist countries, training elite athletes used to be extremely important. But not now.
Under the current economy, the society may prefer using money on something else. There are some top athletes who are marketable. But you do not need too many of them.
Under the current economy, the society may prefer using money on something else. There are some top athletes who are marketable. But you do not need too many of them.
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- Oct 19, 2009
If you would read what I wrote, it's not that "belittling YuNa seems to have been the point"; it's that you are, by using her as the prime example of your case.
OMG you're right, I never thought about that! We have YuNa, who had so much money that she was coached by highly sought-after names like Jyong-Hyun Ryu and Se-Yeol Kim before leaving the luxurious skating facilties in S. Korea and heading off to Canada and learning from Brian Orser, who she must have paid by the bucketload to persuade him to leave his shows for coaching. She also wore some hand-me-down skates that didn't fit her feet for a while, because only she could afford them--to other skaters' envy.
Meanwhile, Mao had to settle for second-rate discount coaches like Machiko Yamada, Rafael Arutunian, and Tatiana Tarasova. And then with Tarasova, Mao doesn't have the finances to live abroad and train, so she's forced to stay in Japan and only see Tarasova part-time, and surely it's Mao's lack of funding that has Tarasova unable to attend her competitions, not Tarasova's health.
YuNa is definitely the poster kid for overwhelming advantages right from the get-go.
Since when was Rafael Arutunian second rate? And TAT is definitley NOT second rate...
☆Genie;481981 said:
That's the point.
bethissoawsome, I see your point and I also feel bad for young skaters don't leave up to their potential due to lack of resources.
The thing is that Yuna actually belonged to THAT group of skaters. Who knows what Yuna could have done if she was North American and had better access to better coaches, choreographers and better training environment thus had had less injuries? She might've been doing 3As and 4Ts left and right by now.
Life is unfair. We could make it better by distributing the pie if the haves are willing to(you can't really forcre them or regulate them in capitalism society), and that is what Yuna is doing-by donating and supporting Juniors in Korea.
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- Oct 19, 2009
Those are your only objections to my post?☆Genie;481981 said:
That just made my day.
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- Oct 19, 2009
I actually want to make a more serious post regarding what we can learn from many athletes who had humble beginnings. I consider YuNa to be one of them, though she is certainly not the only one. But the odds really were stacked against her.
Support is essential. It really is. Financial support may be one if the biggest factors, but it certainly isn't the only one. Living in a society or community that has knowledge and appreciation for figure skating is also very important; hopefully that community also has accessible modern-day facilities; personal support (family, friends, coaches, countrymen) is priceless and unquantifiable.
Not only that, the right kind of support is crucial. You can throw your money at whatever you want, but you should make sure it's a good match for the skater and what he/she needs. Living and training in isolation is depressing and can psychologically hurt someone even if their technique and choreography are perfect. Coaches and advisers should be well-versed in navigating CoP; if they aren't, hopefully they put in the necessary time and effort to study it. Also, specifically for YuNa's case (and the main reason for making this amendment post), I do not wish to disrespect her early coaches. They may have had their limitations in knowledge and experience, perhaps, but they taught the essentials to YuNa meticulously and with ingenuity (videos? YES! Good freakin' job.) You see, it's not just about money. It's about care. And when they knew their prodigy needed what was beyond their scope of expertise, they advised her to seek someone else. Nowadays, Brian Orser and David Wilson are the stars of her team, but I think her early coaches did a marvelous job. Also, one of her best programs is not by Wilson, but by Tom Dickson (Roxanne). I know he is rather known as well, but I think he did just as much of a good job. There are plenty of good coaches and choreographers to go around; sometimes it's a matter of looking for them and finding them.
YuNa's team is not just her coach and choreographer, either--there's more "family" at the Cricket Club. She doesn't pay for Adam Rippon and Christina Gao to be there with her. They happen to be there, and I'm sure it adds to her experience and support network; yet another thing money cannot necessarily buy.
Lastly, YuNa does have the full backing of S. Korea, which is a huge bonus, as well. But in some ways it is a burden, too.
So yes, the system is not ideal. And I do think YuNa got lucky; these things may not have happened to another skater from another country if the chips didn't fall just right. But like I said, I don't think regulating the amount of spending or prices for coaches/choreographers is the answer, and it obscures a ton of issues--not to mention I think coaches and choreographers should have autonomy over their careers. Orser turned down Carolina Kostner's request to consider being her coach, as well. I don't think the issue was that she didn't offer him enough $$$; he considered it to be a conflict of interests to be coaching ladies that are competing in the same circuit at the same time. I do not think the solution would have been to limit how much YuNa can pay him so that he would've been forced to take up Kostner against his personal values just to be able to support himself.
On the other hand, I do think profits from shows and competitions should definitely have a fund to support rising skaters and possible talents from countries that are somewhat disadvantaged. I don't know if there is such a program already in place, but that would be good and fair. And of course, if an individual skater wants to take it upon herself to support other skaters, too then that is lov-e-ly.
Support is essential. It really is. Financial support may be one if the biggest factors, but it certainly isn't the only one. Living in a society or community that has knowledge and appreciation for figure skating is also very important; hopefully that community also has accessible modern-day facilities; personal support (family, friends, coaches, countrymen) is priceless and unquantifiable.
Not only that, the right kind of support is crucial. You can throw your money at whatever you want, but you should make sure it's a good match for the skater and what he/she needs. Living and training in isolation is depressing and can psychologically hurt someone even if their technique and choreography are perfect. Coaches and advisers should be well-versed in navigating CoP; if they aren't, hopefully they put in the necessary time and effort to study it. Also, specifically for YuNa's case (and the main reason for making this amendment post), I do not wish to disrespect her early coaches. They may have had their limitations in knowledge and experience, perhaps, but they taught the essentials to YuNa meticulously and with ingenuity (videos? YES! Good freakin' job.) You see, it's not just about money. It's about care. And when they knew their prodigy needed what was beyond their scope of expertise, they advised her to seek someone else. Nowadays, Brian Orser and David Wilson are the stars of her team, but I think her early coaches did a marvelous job. Also, one of her best programs is not by Wilson, but by Tom Dickson (Roxanne). I know he is rather known as well, but I think he did just as much of a good job. There are plenty of good coaches and choreographers to go around; sometimes it's a matter of looking for them and finding them.
YuNa's team is not just her coach and choreographer, either--there's more "family" at the Cricket Club. She doesn't pay for Adam Rippon and Christina Gao to be there with her. They happen to be there, and I'm sure it adds to her experience and support network; yet another thing money cannot necessarily buy.
Lastly, YuNa does have the full backing of S. Korea, which is a huge bonus, as well. But in some ways it is a burden, too.
So yes, the system is not ideal. And I do think YuNa got lucky; these things may not have happened to another skater from another country if the chips didn't fall just right. But like I said, I don't think regulating the amount of spending or prices for coaches/choreographers is the answer, and it obscures a ton of issues--not to mention I think coaches and choreographers should have autonomy over their careers. Orser turned down Carolina Kostner's request to consider being her coach, as well. I don't think the issue was that she didn't offer him enough $$$; he considered it to be a conflict of interests to be coaching ladies that are competing in the same circuit at the same time. I do not think the solution would have been to limit how much YuNa can pay him so that he would've been forced to take up Kostner against his personal values just to be able to support himself.
On the other hand, I do think profits from shows and competitions should definitely have a fund to support rising skaters and possible talents from countries that are somewhat disadvantaged. I don't know if there is such a program already in place, but that would be good and fair. And of course, if an individual skater wants to take it upon herself to support other skaters, too
then that is lov-e-ly.Similar threads
