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Thread: Should a quad be a required element in Mens skating?

  1. #1
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Should a quad be a required element in Mens skating?

    Evgeni Plushenko has expressed disappointment at losing the olympic gold medal to a skater who did not attempt a quadruple jump in either phase of competition. His comments strongly imply that the quad should be a required element.

    Do you agree? Should men be required to attempt a quad?

    In the SP?

    In the LP?

    Both?

    Neither?

  2. #2
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    It's already a required element in the SP.

    Just like the Axel, you can do a double or triple. (ie. Lambiel does 2A in SP)

    And you can do a quad or triple in either a jump following some step sequence or as part of a jump combination.

    You cannot possibly make it a required element because not everybody can do it.

  3. #3
    Custom Title NatachaHatawa's Avatar
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    Nothing should be required, at least not in the LP, problems emmerge when things are required and skaters have no freedom to express themselves and one kind of style is priviledged.

    The problem with this system is the Free programs have become long programs.
    I love quads, but rather than force skaters to quad, those who have the potential should not be penalised for taking risks.

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    Absolutely should not be required. In fact, I'd go so far as to ban it. But since I'm not in charge, leaving the COP where it is on this issue (which is not to reward it too much) is OK with me.

    Why? IMO,
    1) Learning and practicing quads on a wider scale will only lead to more and more injuries among the men. Especially if they start practicing them in their teens, which of course they will do. Just like too many women racking up their bodies permanently doing too many triple loop-triple loop combos too young.

    2) Time spent learning the quad--for most men--will likely lead to short-shrifting work and improvement on other elements, leading to jumping wonders that are empty elsewhere. There are exceptions and some men with quads have well-balanced all around skills--such as an Abbott, a Takahashi or a Lambiel (but their quads aren't consistent). I really don't want to encourage the development of more Goebels, Stoykos, or Plushenkos.

  5. #5
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    If it would be required, then it should be in the SP. I'm not a big fan of the SP, and I would not object to it becoming like the old school figures in that there is no music - just technique. I know how much some fans see 'artistry' in the SP, but I see Sport.

    It should not be required in the LP which should change it's name from Long Program to FREE Program, free meaning exactly what free means.

  6. #6
    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    I don't think the quad should be required, but I do think they need a way to encourage it more (for ladies I think this should and could also be done with the solo 3A, 3A in combination and/or any 3+3 combination in which the first jump is a flip or lutz).

    This is my idea (for Men's skating, this would only be available for quad jumps (or possibly a 3+3 combo where the first jump is the 3A); Ladies for solo 3A, 3A in combination, and/or any 3+3 combo in which the first jump is flip or lutz): the skater has two options for these jumps, and the chosen option must be stated to the judges before the start of the program.


    Option 1:The skater can attempt the jump under normal CoP rules and try to milk it for all it's worth (the obvious option for a skater like Plushenko who is secure in his quad)

    Option 2: The skater can opt to do the jump with a bonus multiplier... but in doing so, they give up the opportunity to gain any +GOE scores... so even if the jump is landed and would receive +GOE, the skater can still only receive the base value of the jump as the maximum amount of points for picking this option. However if the jump is underrotated, they can still receive -GOEs, but the mutliplier goes into affect.


    Example for Men...
    Take the 4T for an example, base value 9.8. Right now under the current system, if a skater attempts the 4T and underrotates the jump... the base value not only drops to 4.0, but they receive -3 for GOEs, giving them only 1 point for their effort.... and if the skater falls, they don't receive any points at all.

    I picked .6 for the bonus multiplier for the 4T, because it is the rounded inverse percentage of the value of 4.0/9.8.... value for 3T/4T

    If the second option existed a skater could attempt the jump, but if it is marked as underrotated, the judges would work off of 4.0 * .6 = 6.4.... even with a -3 GOE, the score winds up being 3.4, just shy of the 3.5 value of a 2A.

    This option would allow skater to do the quad and still be rewarded some points for the effort... just enough points so it is nearly like a jump element isn't entirely missed. This double option would allow skaters to either go for broke and get the points off of it, or still be able to somewhat "play it safe" with the quad but with the disadvantage of not being able to earn any +GOE score on it if they do somehow miraculously hit it.

    For Ladies....
    The same thing could be applied to the 3A in and 3+3 (only with Flip or Lutz as the first jump) combination for Ladies. In combination, the system would have to work where once again, the skater has the normal choice of going for the 3+3 and garnering +GOE's. Or for the second choice, they highest they can achieve if they hit it would be the base value of the combination... if a jump is underrotated, the multiplier would go into affect for the underrotated jump.

    Examples: 3A (using the same system, .6 would be the multiplier again here). If the 3A is underrotated, judges start with the value of 3.5*.6 = 5.6 (a fair amount just over the value of a 3F) and would deduct from there.

    Example for a 3+3 combo: The multiplier would only go into affect for the base value of the underrotated jump, not for the base value of the entire combination (although the base value of the entire combination would be the maximum score the skater could receive if done perfectly since the skater has opted to forfeit any postive GOEs).

    Using Yu-Na's 2009 Skate America 3Lz+3T< as an example... fully rotated, the base value would be 10.0, with the current system the base value drops to 7.3 (in this case the negative GOEs brought the total down to 5.3). Here the rounded multiplier would be .7 and only apply to the 3T (the underrotated jump) .... so her base value would change to 6.0+1.3*1.7=8.21, and with the same GOE's, bring her total down to 6.21... a total still higher than any solo triple other than the 3A... much better in comparison to her previous score which wound up being lower than the base value of a 3F.



    LOL I know this has been a really long suggestion... but it seems like a feasible way to encourage skaters to learn more difficult moves and not be forced to opt out of the big tricks. They can choose the second option while they are still not totally secure in their jumps, and then as they gain experience with it in international competition under a scoring system that keeps it in check, they can switch to doing it under the normal CoP rules to gain the extra GOEs.



    Any input?

  7. #7
    Custom Title Jhar55's Avatar
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    I say no, it would be like requiring the ladies to do a 3A not all of them can so why should the men be required to do a quad. I think it's over rated and personaly don't care for it.

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    I don't think it should be required, and I think its importance is being blown up this week after the Men's skating competition. If we care so much about a single element, why not fore-go the artistic programs, and just line them up and have them jump?

    I do agree that they should be penalized less for trying the quad and failing, but in cases where they don't get all of the rotations in, it wouldn't count as a quad anyway.

  9. #9
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Eyes View Post
    I don't think it should be required, and I think its importance is being blown up this week after the Men's skating competition. If we care so much about a single element, why not fore-go the artistic programs, and just line them up and have them jump?
    Fore-going the music in the SP would be ideal. All the jumpsters will then have their shot at executing a quad for points to carry with them to the Free Skate where they can display their manly sitsspins and footwork (and maybe a quad combo) together with music.

  10. #10
    Custom Title Sasha'sSpins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    Evgeni Plushenko has expressed disappointment at losing the olympic gold medal to a skater who did not attempt a quadruple jump in either phase of competition. His comments strongly imply that the quad should be a required element.

    Do you agree? Should men be required to attempt a quad?

    In the SP?

    In the LP?

    Both?

    Neither?
    Should the quad be a required element in Men's skating?

    Not after the cringe-inducing quad splat-fest that I saw at these Olympic Games.

    Front loading programs, then shaking your hips while simpering and posing seductively in nauseating ways for the little old ladies in the stands for a minute and half does not an Olympic champion make imo.

  11. #11
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    Absolutely not, for many of the reasons aleady cited.

    I don't think the sport should be dependent upon the execution of a single element that not everyone can do consistently. I don't want to see anyone reward extra points for trying something they can't do even close to consistently. It still boggles my mind that Daisuke tried a quad when he hasn't landed one in competition all season. Giving points for trying means that we'll just see more splats.

    It's the same reason why I hate Bielman's. Not everyone has the physiological ability to do one; yet, we have people practically spinning to a stop as they attempt one.

    I don't think that the 3A should be required for ladies' either - not at the cost of the overall skating experience.

  12. #12
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    Of course not, but I'm sure the question was meant to be rhetorical, eh?

    This isn't about that anyway, it's about being properly awarded for a more difficult jump, one that is so difficult that only 3 men managed to land clean ones at the 2010 Olympic Winter Games.

    Come on, this is sport after all, and everything that goes with upping the ante in the technical difficulty department. Real men quad in my ever so humble opinion.

    Those that can do, those that can't don't. Simple as that.

  13. #13
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    CERTAINLY!!!
    Appearing in competition and especially the olympics without quad combo, it's -for me as a dancer- like dancing swan lake and taking out the 32 fouettes en tournant.

  14. #14
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I would argue yes only if the triple axel were REQUIRED. since it's optional then the quad should also be optional.

  15. #15
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    I am surfing old youtube videos of Evgeni, and would like to quote the same commentators who bash him now for his quad-persistence...

    " o my god he is trying his most difficult combination 4-3-2. That's never been done to the world championship before..."
    " oh he is trying th emost difficult combination 4-3-3, and yeeeeees, he s done it!! He is the only one to do it..."

    They are the same people that try to underestimate the value of the quad now, they are the same that were holding their breath then when he took off from the ground....because Evgeni didn't do a simple quad but numerous ingenious quad combos...
    Back then I didn't see them holding their breath for the transitions...
    People can be so disgusting...
    Seriously if I ever decide to watch figure skating again I ll mute the TV.... they are trash...

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