View Poll Results: Should scoring be changed for jump combinations?

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  • Yes (Difficult jump combinations should be rewarded; or your own reasons)

    36 69.23%
  • No (Figure skating shouldn't be a jump fest; or your own reasons)

    14 26.92%
  • Don't Care (CoP is a nightmare anyways; or your own reasons)

    2 3.85%
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Thread: Should Jump Combinations CoP be Revamped?

  1. #1
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    Question Should Jump Combinations CoP be Revamped?

    The current ISU judging for jump combinations and sequences is the total base value of the 2 or 3 jumps involved. This creates a scenario where less risky less difficult jump combinations are attempted to gather the same amount points.

    This following poster puts it well into perspective,
    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    To be honest Plushenko was stupid in COP to go for his Quadtoe/3toe in the long. You know why the guy should have just gone for the Quadtoe and at the end of his program done an easy double axel/3toe. His base value would have actually been higher because well its a lot easier to do a double axel/3toe at the end of your program than a 4/3. .
    We are regressing back to the days where they did 2A-3T's in the 80's, while in the 90's and 2000's 6.0 era we saw the top eschelon of men doing 3A-3T's. Granted we don't actually have that many men today (if any) taking advantage of the 2A-3T's as compared to the ladies side, but the possibility (or loophole) is there.

    What's even more irritating are the 'double-double's performed at the end of a 3-2-2. Even most Juvenile skaters are capable of doing 'double-double's, though it is different doing them alone than doing it off a triple, it is still weak to see a 3-2-2 being performed by top amateur skaters today.

    The first three jump combination was really meant for the 4-3-2, 4-3-3, 3-3-3, or 3-3-2, now it is basically used to milk points with a 3-2-2. We rarely see other innovative jump sequences anymore such as Tara Lipinski's 3Lo-half loop-3S, or Evgeni's 3A-half loop-3F. Though what I miss most is the traditional 3A-3T.

    So what are some possible options to revise the CoP in regards to Jump Combination's?
    • Create a base value for EACH POSSIBLE jump combination/sequence based on their difficulty. There could be literally hundreds given all the jumps and possible combination, revolutions, sequences, etc.
    • Put a bonus (similar to the program halfway 10% for jumps) on jumps performed at the end of a difficult jump (ie. 3Lz, 3A, 4T).
      Similar bonus for doubles performed after triples, to discourage the importance of 3-2-2's.
    • Like the ladies portion, of allowing three 2A's to be performed in the long; allow a total of five 3T's and 3Lo's to be performed, not counting towards the two repeated triples or quadruples.

      So for a technically challenging program you could have the following jump layout (for example) without 'wasting' your triples,
      -4T
      -3F-3T-3Lo
      -3Lz
      -3Lo
      -3A
      -3A-3T
      -3Lz-2T
      -3S


    What are your thoughts?

    It's been said so many times that the CoP makes skating generic, ie. Elvis Stojko stating the current level 3 / level 4 footwork is the perfect time for a coffee break, because they are all the same or so similar. I missed the days where innovative footwork is an important part of telling a good story behind every program, such as Alexei Yagudin's energetic straight-line footwork and Philippe Candeloro's 1998 program when he portrayed D'Artagnan.
    Last edited by bibi24; 02-28-2010 at 02:01 AM.

  2. #2
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibi24 View Post
    The current ISU judging for jump combinations and sequences is the total base value of the 2 or 3 jumps involved. This creates a scenario where less risky less difficult jump combinations are attempted to gather the same amount points.

    This following poster puts it well into perspective,


    We are regressing back to the days where they did 2A-3T's in the 80's, while in the 90's and 2000's 6.0 era we saw the top eschelon of men doing 3A-3T's. Granted we don't actually have that many men today (if any) taking advantage of the 2A-3T's as compared to the ladies side, but the possibility (or loophole) is there.

    What's even more irritating are the 'double-double's performed at the end of a 3-2-2. Even most Juvenile skaters are capable of doing 'double-double's, though it is different doing them alone than doing it off a triple, it is still weak to see a 3-2-2 being performed by top amateur skaters today.

    The first three jump combination was really meant for the 4-3-2, 4-3-3, 3-3-3, or 3-3-2, now it is basically used to milk points with a 3-2-2. We rarely see other innovative jump sequences anymore such as Tara Lipinski's 3Lo-half loop-3S, or Evgeni's 3A-half loop-3F. Though what I miss most is the traditional 3A-3T.

    So what are some possible options to revise the CoP in regards to Jump Combination's?
    • Create a base value for EACH POSSIBLE jump combination/sequence based on their difficulty. There could be literally hundreds given all the jumps and possible combination, revolutions, sequences, etc.
    • Put a bonus (similar to the program halfway 10% for jumps) on jumps performed at the end of a difficult jump (ie. 3Lz, 3A, 4T).
      Similar bonus for doubles performed after triples, to discourage the importance of 3-2-2's.
    • Like the ladies portion, of allowing three 2A's to be performed in the long; allow a total of five 3T's and 3Lo's to be performed, not counting towards the two repeated triples or quadruples.

      So for a technically challenging program you could have the following jump layout (for example) without 'wasting' your triples,
      -4T
      -3F-3T-3Lo
      -3Lz
      -3Lo
      -3A
      -3A-3T
      -3Lz-2T
      -3S


    What are your thoughts?

    It's been said so many times that the CoP makes skating generic, ie. Elvis Stojko stating the current level 3 / level 4 footwork is the perfect time for a coffee break, because they are all the same or so similar. I missed the days where innovative footwork is an important part of telling a good story behind every program, such as Alexei Yagudin's energetic straight-line footwork and Philippe Candeloro's 1998 program when he portrayed D'Artagnan.
    Good post. I like the Options Two and Three of your list. Option One looks most reasonable and logical, but may not be feasible. So if doable, Option One would be best.

  3. #3
    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibi24 View Post
    The current ISU judging for jump combinations and sequences is the total base value of the 2 or 3 jumps involved. This creates a scenario where less risky less difficult jump combinations are attempted to gather the same amount points.

    This following poster puts it well into perspective,


    We are regressing back to the days where they did 2A-3T's in the 80's, while in the 90's and 2000's 6.0 era we saw the top eschelon of men doing 3A-3T's. Granted we don't actually have that many men today (if any) taking advantage of the 2A-3T's as compared to the ladies side, but the possibility (or loophole) is there.

    What's even more irritating are the 'double-double's performed at the end of a 3-2-2. Even most Juvenile skaters are capable of doing 'double-double's, though it is different doing them alone than doing it off a triple, it is still weak to see a 3-2-2 being performed by top amateur skaters today.

    The first three jump combination was really meant for the 4-3-2, 4-3-3, 3-3-3, or 3-3-2, now it is basically used to milk points with a 3-2-2. We rarely see other innovative jump sequences anymore such as Tara Lipinski's 3Lo-half loop-3S, or Evgeni's 3A-half loop-3F. Though what I miss most is the traditional 3A-3T.

    So what are some possible options to revise the CoP in regards to Jump Combination's?
    • Create a base value for EACH POSSIBLE jump combination/sequence based on their difficulty. There could be literally hundreds given all the jumps and possible combination, revolutions, sequences, etc.
    • Put a bonus (similar to the program halfway 10% for jumps) on jumps performed at the end of a difficult jump (ie. 3Lz, 3A, 4T).
      Similar bonus for doubles performed after triples, to discourage the importance of 3-2-2's.
    • Like the ladies portion, of allowing three 2A's to be performed in the long; allow a total of five 3T's and 3Lo's to be performed, not counting towards the two repeated triples or quadruples.

      So for a technically challenging program you could have the following jump layout (for example) without 'wasting' your triples,
      -4T
      -3F-3T-3Lo
      -3Lz
      -3Lo
      -3A
      -3A-3T
      -3Lz-2T
      -3S


    What are your thoughts?

    It's been said so many times that the CoP makes skating generic, ie. Elvis Stojko stating the current level 3 / level 4 footwork is the perfect time for a coffee break, because they are all the same or so similar. I missed the days where innovative footwork is an important part of telling a good story behind every program, such as Alexei Yagudin's energetic straight-line footwork and Philippe Candeloro's 1998 program when he portrayed D'Artagnan.
    I agree with all 3 points, but I would tweak it a little bit...

    1. really the combinations are rather limited under the current system (unless sequences are also included)... I would change it so that bonus values or separate jump combination scores based on difficulty are limited to only jumping combinations that contain at least 5 1/2 revolutions for women (so all 3-3's, and the 3A+2T/Lo or 2A+3T/Lo) and 6 revolutions for Men for a jumping combination consisting of 2 jumps; and at least 8 1/2 revolutions for women and 9 revolutions for men if the jumping combination consists of 3 jumps. This would also discourage the constant +2Lo +2Lo

    2. completely agreed

    3. I think the Zayak rule should also apply to the 2A, as it is becoming a cushion jump to either cover up for lack of a triple or be used as an easy jump in the second half to tack on those 2Lo's to in the second half of the program. I'd also like to see the Zayak rule changed so that, if a skater is able to, he or she can use a triple for every jump combination. So the Zayak rule would be something like this: No more than 2 Triple or Quadruple jumps can be repeated, and only by doing so as using it as a jump in combination atleast once. However, the 3T or 3Lo can be used up to 4 times if the jump is only used as the final jumps of a jumping pass. If a skater chooses to use the 3T or 3Lo three or more times at the end of a combination, the jump cannot be used as a solo jump; however if the jump is used only twice or less, the skater jump can be used once again as a solo jump, but may not use both as solo jumps.

    So Ultimately, the best layout you would see for ladies would be something like this:
    combinations: 3Lz+3Lo, 3A+3T, 3Lz+3T+3Lo, 3A, 3Lz, 3F, 3Lo, 3S

    A system that actually encourages skaters to master every single one of their triples.

    Very nice idea, bibi.

  4. #4
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    These are such innovative suggestions. Any version of Option 3 was something that never occurred to me as a possibility. I wish all the suggested options were adopted as a package.

    Shouldn't this thread put in The Edge?
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-28-2010 at 05:16 AM.

  5. #5
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    How Irina's 3S + 2L + Half Loop + 2S (landed at Grand Prix Final 2003-2003 or Worlds 2004) or 3S +3L + Half Loop + 2S (landed at Russian Nationals 2002-2003) would be counted under CoP? Sequence or combo? According to current rules first two jumps are normal combo but than there's a half loop which make it a sequence. She was practising 3S + 3L + Half Loop + 3S during 2002-2003 season and such combination would give good marks under 6,0 but under CoP it's rather rather senseless to do it unless it would be counted as a combination (base value 14). As a sequence it's only 11,20. Can you tell me also how her combination from 2001 Worlds would be counted under CoP? She landed 3Lz, underrotated 3L, then had a step out and 2T.

  6. #6
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    How Irina's 3S + 2L + Half Loop + 2S (landed at Grand Prix Final 2003-2003 or Worlds 2004) or 3S +3L + Half Loop + 2S (landed at Russian Nationals 2002-2003) would be counted under CoP? Sequence or combo? According to current rules first two jumps are normal combo but than there's a half loop which make it a sequence. She was practising 3S + 3L + Half Loop + 3S during 2002-2003 season and such combination would give good marks under 6,0 but under CoP it's rather rather senseless to do it unless it would be counted as a combination (base value 14). As a sequence it's only 11,20. Can you tell me also how her combination from 2001 Worlds would be counted under CoP? She landed 3Lz, underrotated 3L, then had a step out and 2T.
    I think these proposals are being made with the assumption that more encouragement should be made toward 3-3 and 3-axel, and less of 2-2, while simultaneously encouraging the mastery of all five triples of good quality

    If ladies were now not having problems landing 3-3, then considering how 3S +3L + Half Loop + 2S would be counted would/could be a major issue, but I think skaters would probably have a hard time getting the 3S +3L part ratified.

    Also, wouldn't adding on a Half Loop + 2S be considered easier than adding a 2 Loop + 2 Loop?

    And then with the possibility of 3S + 3L + Half Loop + 3S ever being performed, given that skaters have 7 jump passes, they're not likely to use up three of their triples on one jump pass, particularly as doing two salchows means not being able to do two lutzes or flips. Anyway, as I said already, who's going to attempt that since they'd get underrotation calls just on the 3S + 3L part.
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-28-2010 at 07:43 AM.

  7. #7
    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    How Irina's 3S + 2L + Half Loop + 2S (landed at Grand Prix Final 2003-2003 or Worlds 2004) or 3S +3L + Half Loop + 2S (landed at Russian Nationals 2002-2003) would be counted under CoP? Sequence or combo? According to current rules first two jumps are normal combo but than there's a half loop which make it a sequence. She was practising 3S + 3L + Half Loop + 3S during 2002-2003 season and such combination would give good marks under 6,0 but under CoP it's rather rather senseless to do it unless it would be counted as a combination (base value 14). As a sequence it's only 11,20. Can you tell me also how her combination from 2001 Worlds would be counted under CoP? She landed 3Lz, underrotated 3L, then had a step out and 2T.
    Under CoP, you can get a combination value from going into the next jump of the combination from the same landing edge as your first jump, so since you pick down and land on the inside edge of your right foot (if you are a counter-clockwise skater, ie right-handed), you can only do a T or Lo jump for the second type of jump in a combination. The jump combination becomes a sequence when you put any sort of edge turn, jump, step, etc. in between the two jumps. Irina's 3S+2L+Half Loop+2S would be considered a sequence, and under CoP, a sequence only gets .8 or 8/10ths of the value of the jump. So this combination would be scored as 4.5+1.5+1.3 = 7.3*.8 = 5.84 base value... which is actually a lower vase value than if she had just done the 3S+2Lo (6.0 base value). It's impossible to completely tell what her program would be under CoP, because there is no way of gauging the levels of spins, no set footwork sequence, spirals... basically, the required elements are different, and what you need to do to get to a certain level. Beyond adding up a base for her jumping passes, that is really all you can do.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethissoawesome View Post
    Under CoP, you can get a combination value from going into the next jump of the combination from the same landing edge as your first jump, so since you pick down and land on the inside edge of your right foot (if you are a counter-clockwise skater, ie right-handed), you can only do a T or Lo jump for the second type of jump in a combination. The jump combination becomes a sequence when you put any sort of edge turn, jump, step, etc. in between the two jumps. Irina's 3S+2L+Half Loop+2S would be considered a sequence, and under CoP, a sequence only gets .8 or 8/10ths of the value of the jump. So this combination would be scored as 4.5+1.5+1.3 = 7.3*.8 = 5.84 base value... which is actually a lower vase value than if she had just done the 3S+2Lo (6.0 base value). It's impossible to completely tell what her program would be under CoP, because there is no way of gauging the levels of spins, no set footwork sequence, spirals... basically, the required elements are different, and what you need to do to get to a certain level. Beyond adding up a base for her jumping passes, that is really all you can do.
    Thank you. This scoring is a little bit unfair because two first jumps of this jumping pass are combination, she landed on the right foot after the salchow and did the loop right from this foot so it would be counted as a combination 3S+2L but she added half loop and 2S and under CoP she would downgrade her jumping pass in this way. Have you got any idea about combo from Worlds 2001? I want to re-do my video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZN6WGPAhHI ) with Irina's triple-triples and I didn't know how to mark 3S+3L+half loop+2S from Russian Nats, that's why I'm asking. Sorry for off-topic.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    I want to re-do my video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZN6WGPAhHI ) with Irina's triple-triples .
    ahh yes who could forget the Queen of combo's <3

    Very much enjoyed your first compliation, can't wait for any other ones you might do

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