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Thread: Isn't taping the judges prohibited?

  1. #31
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Welcome. urigio. Post often, post long!

    Is the judge in the video really being accused of cheating? Or are the commentators just trying to educate viewers on the importance of GOEs in the ISU judging system? (I do not speak Japanese, so I am just going by reports on this thread.)
    Based on my understanding of the video & the comments, etc. that were said, it sounds like they're saying GOE can make a big difference in the final outcome, but that Mao was robbed because her 3As should get more GOE than they did just because she landed them.

    So they're not saying outright that the judges CHEATED because JP tends to be a lil more subtle about things like that, but they're making it VERY CLEAR that Mao was unfairly judged and scored.

  2. #32
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    I agree with Nadia's interpretation. I think they just wanted to get the message across that they think that GoEs have too much weight on deciding who wins, and that Mao was not given the kind of GoEs that e.g., Plushenko thought she should have for her triple-axel.

    The scores of the judge who they chose to focus on was fairly neutral in relative terms to other judges' scores. The screen showed the judge giving +2 GoEs on three of Yuna's jumps, and +1 and -1 GoEs on Mao's triple-axels in her LP.

    If anything, the clip provides conclusive evidence that this judge had scored fairly moderately. If they wanted to insinuate that this judge had cheated or had given extremely high/low scores, they would have done better by blanketing out the scores he/she had given.

  3. #33
    Medalist ryoko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarukou View Post
    Why can't the judges in figure skating be open and identified? AFAIK, it's the only sport that has anonymous judging panels. Every other judged sport shows what each judge's nationality is, and shows each mark each judge gave. Why can't figure skating? By having anonymous judging, figure skating loses even more credibility as a sport.

    Moreover, how is what this T.V. station did in the wrong? They filmed the judge's marks. This is illegal how? If the judges are being fair, they should have nothing to worry about anyways.
    Isn't it wrong though? I don't know if it's illegal, but am pretty sure you can get in serious trouble for this. And P-lease. Like your favorite skater NEVER gained benefits under COP.
    Why are you saying that judges are trying to hide something now? It has been what it is for several years now- you see only what you want to see.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puppylove View Post
    It's a bit scary how often I agree with you, Mrs. P!

    I was scratching my head when I read this thread, wondering what the point of this exercise was anyway, considering the breakdown of the scores comes out almost immediately and many FS fans in a country where the sport is popular know how the GOE system works. If it was intended to educate the wider audience, they could have just... explained in words? Although it would be terribly unfair, some people from outside Japan might associate this negatively with the Japanese skaters.
    I doubt they know how the GOE system works though. I've seen way too many fans crying Mao wuzrobbed because she does 3A and Yuna only does EASY jumps. (For heaven's sake, since when lutz and 3-3 are easy by the way? Just tell Mao that and I bet she'll be mad!)
    So many people especially in Japan ignores both difficulty and quality matters. I blame their Media for this because they've only emphasized the 'difficulty' part for so many years. This is backfiring now and no wonder their public is left puzzled.

    But if they wanted to explain how the GOE works, this is not so effective way IMO. Using protocol sheets would be more appropriate. Here they make it as if one biased judge caused some debatable action while in fact almost all of the judges made same judgements across the boards.

    Seriously, could they do that? I myself am not a fan of anonimous judging, but peeping them from afar?
    Last edited by gourry; 03-02-2010 at 12:03 AM.

  5. #35
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    I got so angry when I saw the clip yesterday. What's the TV program aiming for? Don't Japanese people get indignant seeing that idiotic show?

    I don't take issues about the content even if it's a little laughable... they did not directly say that the scores were absolutely wrong. They just let Plush say Mao should have gotten more points and by that, they suggested that the judging was somewhat subjective and could be mislead.

    Yes, I think who judged what should be publicly notified. Being fair only matters. But before the authorities modify the rule, just don't film what judges are doing, needless to say, airing it in public. Shame on you, the producer of the show!
    And the Japanese media should show some respect to their athletes. If you want to know why the things go, say, +GOD for Yuna and 0 or -GOD for Asada, you really don't have to ask the judge and have him definitely declair, "Yuna's jumps were better." How would Mao and Japanese people feel to see that?
    What about the caption at the first part of the clip? 'Pissed off vs the highest score in history' below the pics of two skaters? I feel for Mao even if I am never her fan.

    Japanese people, your athletes can win or lose. Protest against the TV station. You cannot be fooled.
    Japanese media staffs, give your athletes some break especially when they are crying right after their defeat.
    Last edited by sunny0760; 03-02-2010 at 04:05 AM.

  6. #36
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    Based on my understanding of the video & the comments, etc. that were said, it sounds like they're saying GOE can make a big difference in the final outcome, but that Mao was robbed because her 3As should get more GOE than they did just because she landed them.
    So they're not saying outright that the judges CHEATED because JP tends to be a lil more subtle about things like that, but they're making it VERY CLEAR that Mao was unfairly judged and scored.
    Looks like another case of "Damned dirty judges aren't giving more points than they're allowed to!"

    The simple way to explain it:

    1. For whatever reason (good or bad) a 3ax-2t combination gets fewer points than a 3l-3t combination. Whatever you think of that, those are the rules the judges have to follow and all skaters know that ahead of time. It would be a terrible injustice if the judges began overriding the rules just because they don't like them. Change them for future competitions but leave them alone during a given competition.

    2. Asada's 3ax is a very impressive accomplishment for a lady (since so few ladies have had the jump ratified in competition). On the other hand ... as a 3ax it's kind of average. Leaving some technical issues aside she doesn't go into it or land it with great speed and it's not very high. Credit to her for doing it so often, but ..... while it's a 3ax it's not a great 3ax (like Ito or Harding had).

    3. Kim's 3l-3t combination is hella impressive by any standard (including head to head with the men). She goes into it and lands it with a lot of speed and it's nice and high and super clean. It's a great combination, just about the best any skater consistently lands now.

    I would say that the individual point values for an individual 3ax and/or quad aren't out of line regarding other jumps, but the point values for combinations and sequences are all screwed up in CoP and always have been and need a drastic overhaul (and yes, the tech specs should give the benefit of a doubt in cases that are anywhere close with quds and ladies' 3axes).

    The thing is, even if the 3ax-2t combo had been raised in point values I still think Kim's 3lz-3t deserves more points than Asada's 3ax-2t. The degree of quality in those two combinations is just that large.
    Last edited by Mafke; 03-02-2010 at 04:07 AM. Reason: correcting misteaks

  7. #37
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Difficulty of jumps are not worth more than that of the whole program.

  8. #38
    Custom Title Morning Glory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    Based on my understanding of the video & the comments, etc. that were said, it sounds like they're saying GOE can make a big difference in the final outcome, but that Mao was robbed because her 3As should get more GOE than they did just because she landed them.

    So they're not saying outright that the judges CHEATED because JP tends to be a lil more subtle about things like that, but they're making it VERY CLEAR that Mao was unfairly judged and scored.
    I've just watched this video, as I don't read Hangul I don't know how the subtitles says, but I don't think this video says that Mao was unfairly judged VERY CLEARLY. And also they didn't say Mao sould get more GOE just because she landed them. Really funny, you have such strong impression. I'm not sure you are fluent in Japanese, but in another thread you got Mao's interview as a negative one although some Japanese posters here got it as NOT negative.Is there any misunderstanding which I may resolve?

  9. #39
    Custom Title Morning Glory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunny0760 View Post
    I got so angry when I saw the clip yesterday. What's the TV program aiming for? Don't Japanese people get indignant seeing that idiotic show?

    I don't take issure about the content even if it's a little laughable... they did not directly say that the scores were absolutely wrong. They just let Plush say Mao should have gotten more points and by that, they suggested that the judging was somewhat subjective and could be mislead.

    Yes, I think who judged what should be publicly notified. Being fair only matters. But before the authorities modify the rule, just don't film what judges are doing, needless to say, airing it in public. Shame on you, the producer of the show!
    And the Japanese media should show some respect to their athletes. If you want to know why the things go, say, +GOD for Yuna and 0 or -GOD for Asada, you really don't have to ask the judge and have him definitely declair, "Yuna's jumps were better." How would Mao and Japanese people feel to see that?
    What about the caption at the first part of the clip? 'Pissed off vs the highest score in history' below the pics of two skaters? I feel for Mao even if I am never her fan.

    Japanese people, your athletes can win or lose. Protest against the TV station. You cannot be fooled.
    Japanese media staffs, give your athletes some break especially when they are crying right after their defeat.
    I think you had better calm down. Maybe you don't know how Japanese media praise Yuna saying she skated beautifully and perfectly under such a pressure.I watched some TV programs featuring Yuna's progress and celebrating her victory.Of course, in a friendly way.

    And as I said above, I don't have an impression that this video has a strong message.

  10. #40
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
    I've just watched this video, as I don't read Hangul I don't know how the subtitles says, but I don't think this video says that Mao was unfairly judged VERY CLEARLY. And also they didn't say Mao sould get more GOE just because she landed them. Really funny, you have such strong impression. I'm not sure you are fluent in Japanese, but in another thread you got Mao's interview as a negative one although some Japanese posters here got it as NOT negative.Is there any misunderstanding which I may resolve?
    I think maybe you missed another post I've made in which I clarified that it was another interview? I've seen like tons of Mao interviews post-LP.

    Given how subtle Japanese can be (for example: "we'll consider this with a forward looking posture" really meaning "no"), I think the program strongly suggests that Mao wasn't scored properly, esp. with them having Plushy on the show, who said Mao should get more points just for landing 3As. If the only thing the show wanted to do was explain what GOE means and how it can affect the final outcome and why Yuna gets more GOE compared to Mao, they wouldn't have interviewed Plushy and aired him saying how Mao didn't get enough GOE for her 3As.

    BTW -- I've seen some nice JP TV programs talking about Yuna's progress, but I still think that many Japanese people aren't happy with the scoring, believing that Mao wasn't scored correctly. And the program like this only encourages such sentiment.

    P.S. I don't think programs like this really helps anybody since Mao made mistakes and Yuna didn't, and even the mighty 3As cannot cancel out 2 extra triples Yuna had in her program (Mao's 4 triples v. Yuna's 6 triples). This isn't like SLC where we saw two great pairs skating. Even under 6.0, Yuna would've won, as she would've finished top 3 in SP and finished 1st in LP. If Mao had skated SOTL and squeaky clean and still lost to clean Yuna, I'd say there's a valid reason for unhappiness and debate on the JP side. As it stands, programs like this come across as whining. They should be happy that Mao's 4 triples beat Joannie's 7 triples for OSM.
    Last edited by Nadia01; 03-02-2010 at 04:32 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
    I've just watched this video, as I don't read Hangul I don't know how the subtitles says, but I don't think this video says that Mao was unfairly judged VERY CLEARLY. And also they didn't say Mao sould get more GOE just because she landed them. Really funny, you have such strong impression. I'm not sure you are fluent in Japanese, but in another thread you got Mao's interview as a negative one although some Japanese posters here got it as NOT negative.Is there any misunderstanding which I may resolve?
    Well, I am a fluent Japanese speaker and of course can read the Hangeul transtlation.
    What Plush said was exactly what you said, "Mao sould get more GOE just because she landed them."
    http://gall.dcinside.com/list.php?id...0&page=44&bbs=

    1. Mao landed beautiful 3As.
    2. They should give them a lot of GOE.
    3. The first time in the world, the first time on earth,
    4. she did two 3As
    5. two times,
    6. But the judges did not give Mao enough scores.
    7. That's GOE.
    8. They MUST give GOE.

    Evgeni did not say Mao should have won, though.
    As far as I know, the commentator did not say that directly but the intention was somewhat obvious.
    Last edited by sunny0760; 03-02-2010 at 04:25 AM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
    I've just watched this video, as I don't read Hangul I don't know how the subtitles says, but I don't think this video says that Mao was unfairly judged VERY CLEARLY. And also they didn't say Mao sould get more GOE just because she landed them. Really funny, you have such strong impression. I'm not sure you are fluent in Japanese, but in another thread you got Mao's interview as a negative one although some Japanese posters here got it as NOT negative.Is there any misunderstanding which I may resolve?
    Like you are saying, the clip does not VERY CLEARLY say that Mao was unfairly judged.
    Nevertheless, it STRONGLY IMPLIED that Asada was receiving unfair marks in comparison to Kim.

    It just showed respective skaters receiving their marks without making any effort to clarify why they were marked in a such way.
    Also, though makers of this video didn't say that Asada deserves higher GOEs, they used part of Plushenko's interview out of context to make their argument.

    My impression is that makers of the clip are trying desperately to mislead casual fans to believing that Asada was robbed of her gold medal.
    By showing the Korean judge in particular, they seem to be trying to stir up anti-Korean sentiment as well.
    I find this as a rubbish journalism that deserve strong condemnation.

  13. #43
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    Wow, putting the whole Yu-na vs. Mao debate aside, this is a clear violation of journalistic endeavors. What in the world are these people trying to get at by taping the judges? Did they actually think they would get applauded for going against the rules in order to hold up their national favorite? They give a poor explanation of the GOE system, put every element out of context, and make it seem as though Mao should've won, but didn't just because of GOE, when it fact she made mistakes. I can't read the subtitles or comprehend the Japanese, but the gist of every word is clear, as are the underlying messages. Mao wasn't satisfied with her performance for a reason. Why don't they understand that? And why are they filming one judge only? Clearly, an implication is being made. Are people actually believing this rubbish?

  14. #44
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    My impression is that makers of the clip are trying desperately to mislead casual fans to believing that Asada was robbed of her gold medal.
    By showing the Korean judge in particular, they seem to be trying to stir up anti-Korean sentiment as well.
    I find this as a rubbish journalism that deserve strong condemnation.
    I do think that this program implied that Mao should have gotten more GoEs on her triple-axels, a remarkable feat for a woman, to Yuna's high quality but more common jumps and jump combinations.

    However, I disagree that they are implying that Mao was robbed of her gold medal. I don't think this can be inferred about this piece, and neither can it be said about Japanese coverage of the event in general. There is general consensus that Yuna deserved her gold. This piece is only implying that the 23 point difference between the two was too much. And this is an understanding that is widespread amongst Japanese public.

    Also, as for the possibility that they picked on the Korean judge to stir-up anti-Korean sentiment, I think there was potential that the judge's image could have been edited for such purpose, but I think it never happened, because Yuna skated perfectly and Mao made two mistakes. I'm sure that if it had been the case that Yuna had made two mistakes against Mao's perfect performance and had won, there would have been plenty of wuzrobbing screams, and those images would have been edited to fit this scenario.

    As it was, the only thing that they could with some legitimacy argue was that the gap in points was too big, and in this light, the Korean judge's image was probably only used because they needed an image of a hand pushing the computer screen to mark the GOEs. I tell you honestly that until it was pointed out to me that the blur was Korean, I didn't even think about it, particularly as they also included an interview of another Caucasian male judge, so it seemed like they were taking blurred shots of various judges. The scores of the judge (which it turns out is Korean) are so moderate anyway, it can't support the argument that the Korean judge was biased.

    But you know, I think it was a close call. If Yuna hadn't skated perfectly, things would have gotten really ugly.
    Last edited by hurrah; 03-02-2010 at 05:06 AM.

  15. #45
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I do think that this program implied that Mao should have gotten more GoEs on her triple-axels, a remarkable feat for a woman, to Yuna's high quality but more common jumps and jump combinations.
    I really find it incredible that so many peolpe call 3Lz / 3T & 2A/3T "common".

    How many ladies at the Oly tried 3Lz / 3T AND 2A / 3T in LP and got them ratified w/ positive GOE?

    Only one: Yuna.

    (Mirai landed 2A / 3T, but she didn't have 3/3 of any kind.)

    I applaud Mao for going for 3As, but just landing it doesn't mean she should automatically get +2 GOE.

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