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Thread: Isn't taping the judges prohibited?

  1. #136
    On the Ice sarukou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gourry View Post
    That is simply wrong.
    She did new combination jump, 3Lz+3T, which is more difficult than her original 3F+3T. She jampacked her progam with transitions, she added difficult movement in and/or out of her jumps.
    Maybe you are just not that interested in Yuna after all to notice such a thing.
    A 3T has the same base value whether done after a quad, or a single jump. It doesn't matter. Her jumping layout has actually gotten easier these past 2-3 seasons or so with the exclusion of her 3Lo.
    However, most of her other elements have improved in quality, and when done well have a light, airy quality to them. Her performance level has much improved from the past, and this is well reflected in her PCS. So while her jumping layout has gotten a little easier, she has made improvements in nearly every other aspect in her skating. But I would not say her programs are jam-packed with transitions.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    The media from both countries obviously likes to heat up this rivalry to the max if they could because it will get good ratings. The Japanese media is not nice to Yuna, but the Korean media has never been that nice to Mao either. I remember reading something about how Mao's lack of a religion is the reason she is losing(since Yuna is Cathollic). So it's pretty normal that the Japanese media will do these things after Mao lost to Yuna. I am pretty sure the Korean media would do similar bashing if the situation is reversed.
    I dont' condone Korean media being nasty to Mao either.

    I was really pissy when I saw articles on how Mao's costumes were ugly last year (her Claire de Lune dress), which I thought was uncalled for and just outright nasty.

    You're right it's all about the high ratings and $ for the TV stations, and I guess they don't care about hurting the young athletes' feelings for the sake of money, etc.

    Am feeling very cynical now.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    My goodness, what is your point? First you're all irate because the Japanese media and citizens, according to you, are all "outraged" because Mao lost to Yuna. And now you're complaining because the Japanese are not "outraged" about Daisuke losing to Evan?
    Can't you read? That's not what I said. If Japanese are true skating fans and this isn't an nationalistic issue, there should be no discrepancy in the sense of outrage over the men's and ladies' result.

    BTW, there are no outrage among skating commentators over Yuna's margin of victory. Many seem pleased with the result. In fact, I've heard a lot of superlatives describing Yuna's performance, such as Sandra Bezic saying that it's one of the best Olympic performances ever. Jacques Rogge also said Yuna's performance was one the highlights of the Olympics, comparing the quality of performance to that of Torvill and Dean. I think it is only the Mao fans who are making such a huge issue of the results.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I really don't believe it's Yuna that's being questioned or blamed. I don't think that happened at all even in that piece where the judges were taped.

    It's more to do with the incomprehensability regarding the weight of the GOE in deciding who wins, almost regardless of jump and other contents. With previous scores as basis, you can estimate what perfect Mao would have scored. And you can estimate what imperfect Yuna would have scored. And I think that it was indicated, particularly after the short program, that Yuna with two jump mistakes would stll have beaten perfect Mao. It was said by many members of this forum, some who were Yuna fans, that the 5-point lead meant that Yuna's victory was pretty certain. And the perfect Mao would have included two triple-axels.

    So the question that Japanese media are asking, how can this be? And I really don't think it's just Japanese media that's asking this question.

    But anyway, regarding the nationalistic issue, well, I think it's like Britain vs. France, I suppose, or during the Cold War era, Russia vs. America. The closest nations develop strong sense of rivalries and that's just all there is to it. But it can sometimes be that the strongest rivals are the most similar from the point of view of the third party. If I were to tell a British lay person that they're really similar to the French, they'd think I'm just dumb and ignorant! So I guess this phenomenon must be very incomprehensible from an American or European perspective. But even the botting thing, it's actually nothing compared to football hooliganism.
    Maybe not but I don't like her being singled out all the time either.

    I'm not sure if it's that incomprehensible. I've not seen any American or British media asking why there's a 23 pt difference between Yuna & Mao. If there is one, I'd love to see it, b/c so far, every "how come Mao scored less?" type show that I'm aware of came from Japan.

    Oh I'm sure LOL. I told my British friend how everyone there should get along and be friends (Scots, Irish, etc.) over their soccer stuff and he was absolutely apalled. LOL.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I don't live in Japan or Korea, so I haven't watched the television programs.

    I do want to observe what I'm seeing here is the difference in perception. There is a group of people (including our media here in the U.S. and Canada) that seem to believe that what is driving this is this bitterness between Korea and Japan because of the past and so forth. There's another group that believes that such belief is exaggerated and that a Korean skater beating a Japanese skater is a victory, it's only the "icing on the cake" not the "cake" itself.

    I went to Korea for a month-long professionals exchange in 2008 and my impression of the whole Japan and Korea relationship (based on talking to my host family) is while they're far from being best friends, it wouldn't be good to call them bitter enemies either. There have been efforts to reconcile and clearly the two countries support the other's economy in some way — I was in Seoul the first week of May, which is the Golden Week holiday for Japan. I had a really hard time getting a hotel room because of the Japanese tourists had booked most of the rooms well in advance.

    And in K-Pop you got artists like BOA who actually do better in Japan than in Korea. And also groups like Kara, T-ara and SNSD who also play concerts in Japan with great success.

    I don't know, I'm just processing my thoughts and just wanted to share and see what some of you guys thought.

    I think I have a relatively unusual situation, so I would like to share it, if I may.

    Although I live in the UK and have spent well over a half of my life here, I am Korean. Two of my best friends, whom I met at school in England, are Japanese and I speak all three languages fluently. I have been a FS fan for over 30 years but am passionate about many other sports.

    Yes, there is no denying that there is a degree of deep-rooted animosity between the two countries. However, for most people, it is more of rivalry than hatred. We see it at work place, at school, in other sports - two top players ferociously competing but having not much against each other otherwise. Unfortunately, a small but significant sector in each nation do bear hatred and start sh*t-stirring whenever they see an opportunity, egging on others. Oh God, do the media love this! The rest of us range from disinterested to embarrassed. Do I root for Korea when they play against Japan in other sporting events? Of course I do - I'm Korean. Is it because I hate Japan? Nooo! I root for Korea regardless of who they play against, even if I know they are going to get absolutely thrashed! FS is different for me. My favorite female skater is Yuna at present, not because she is Korean but because I like her skating. My favourite male skater is Takahashi by miles. None of the pairs in recent years have stolen my heart because I still haven't got over Gordeeva/Grinkov.

    Another factor is that FS is emotive as well as subjective to a degree. That, I think, is one of the reasons why I prefer this to, er, curling (apologies to curling fans out there), but it creates room for emotional arguments, more so than a match that was lost on a controversial foul call.

    What is also significant in this situation is that both nations have fallen in love with the two girls before/rather than the sport. Perhaps it is not just these two countries, as far as FS is concerned; maybe we notice the individuals first, their countries next and then the sport. Not a very good example and not relevant to FS, but the following, I think, is a lovely story.

    In men's 10000m speed skating, everyone KNEW the gold would go to Sven Kramer from Holland. Speed skating is HUGE in Holland, beyond most people's imagination. Kramer is unbelievably popular in his country. I mean, massive. He was skating last. With six pairs to go, this Korean skater, who had won silver in 5000m, is having a skate of his life. He actually overtakes the other skater's lap (unheard of at this level and quite embarrassing for the guy who also happens to be Dutch). Whenever this Korean boy skates past the Dutch crowd, do you know what they are doing? They are cheering him on, screaming their lungs out, because this guy is about to break the Olympic record, which he does. Then Kramer skates, makes the most ridiculous school-boy error (coach's fault!) and gets disqualified. He is devastated, the Korean guy gets the gold rather than silver (said afterwards he's happy about the gold but the victory feels incomplete because he won it through a stronger skater's mistake) and the Dutch crowd are still contratulating the medalists during the medal ceremony. They love the sport first and then their athletes who are good at it.

    Sorry I'm rambling. It's just that there seem to be some misunderstandings and unduly strong emotions, occasionally irrational, on this board and I wanted to share my take on it for what it's worth.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puppylove View Post
    I think I have a relatively unusual situation, so I would like to share it, if I may.

    Although I live in the UK and have spent well over a half of my life here, I am Korean. Two of my best friends, whom I met at school in England, are Japanese and I speak all three languages fluently. I have been a FS fan for over 30 years but am passionate about many other sports.

    Yes, there is no denying that there is a degree of deep-rooted animosity between the two countries. However, for most people, it is more of rivalry than hatred. We see it at work place, at school, in other sports - two top players ferociously competing but having not much against each other otherwise. Unfortunately, a small but significant sector in each nation do bear hatred and start sh*t-stirring whenever they see an opportunity, egging on others. Oh God, do the media love this! The rest of us range from disinterested to embarrassed. Do I root for Korea when they play against Japan in other sporting events? Of course I do - I'm Korean. Is it because I hate Japan? Nooo! I root for Korea regardless of who they play against, even if I know they are going to get absolutely thrashed! FS is different for me. My favorite female skater is Yuna at present, not because she is Korean but because I like her skating. My favourite male skater is Takahashi by miles. None of the pairs in recent years have stolen my heart because I still haven't got over Gordeeva/Grinkov.

    Another factor is that FS is emotive as well as subjective to a degree. That, I think, is one of the reasons why I prefer this to, er, curling (apologies to curling fans out there), but it creates room for emotional arguments, more so than a match that was lost on a controversial foul call.

    What is also significant in this situation is that both nations have fallen in love with the two girls before/rather than the sport. Perhaps it is not just these two countries, as far as FS is concerned; maybe we notice the individuals first, their countries next and then the sport. Not a very good example and not relevant to FS, but the following, I think, is a lovely story.

    In men's 10000m speed skating, everyone KNEW the gold would go to Sven Kramer from Holland. Speed skating is HUGE in Holland, beyond most people's imagination. Kramer is unbelievably popular in his country. I mean, massive. He was skating last. With six pairs to go, this Korean skater, who had won silver in 5000m, is having a skate of his life. He actually overtakes the other skater's lap (unheard of at this level and quite embarrassing for the guy who also happens to be Dutch). Whenever this Korean boy skates past the Dutch crowd, do you know what they are doing? They are cheering him on, screaming their lungs out, because this guy is about to break the Olympic record, which he does. Then Kramer skates, makes the most ridiculous school-boy error (coach's fault!) and gets disqualified. He is devastated, the Korean guy gets the gold rather than silver (said afterwards he's happy about the gold but the victory feels incomplete because he won it through a stronger skater's mistake) and the Dutch crowd are still contratulating the medalists during the medal ceremony. They love the sport first and then their athletes who are good at it.

    Sorry I'm rambling. It's just that there seem to be some misunderstandings and unduly strong emotions, occasionally irrational, on this board and I wanted to share my take on it for what it's worth.
    However, if it had been a Korean who was beaten by Apolo, I somehow don't think the Korean contingent would be so overjoyed and supportive. Just saying.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    However, if it had been a Korean who was beaten by Apolo, I somehow don't think the Korean contingent would be so overjoyed and supportive. Just saying.
    Oh dear, my post was certainly wasted on at least one person.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    However, if it had been a Korean who was beaten by Apolo, I somehow don't think the Korean contingent would be so overjoyed and supportive. Just saying.
    And the purpose of your existence being...what?

  9. #144
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puppylove View Post
    I think I have a relatively unusual situation, so I would like to share it, if I may.

    Although I live in the UK and have spent well over a half of my life here, I am Korean. Two of my best friends, whom I met at school in England, are Japanese and I speak all three languages fluently. I have been a FS fan for over 30 years but am passionate about many other sports.

    Yes, there is no denying that there is a degree of deep-rooted animosity between the two countries. However, for most people, it is more of rivalry than hatred. We see it at work place, at school, in other sports - two top players ferociously competing but having not much against each other otherwise. Unfortunately, a small but significant sector in each nation do bear hatred and start sh*t-stirring whenever they see an opportunity, egging on others. Oh God, do the media love this! The rest of us range from disinterested to embarrassed. Do I root for Korea when they play against Japan in other sporting events? Of course I do - I'm Korean. Is it because I hate Japan? Nooo! I root for Korea regardless of who they play against, even if I know they are going to get absolutely thrashed! FS is different for me. My favorite female skater is Yuna at present, not because she is Korean but because I like her skating. My favourite male skater is Takahashi by miles. None of the pairs in recent years have stolen my heart because I still haven't got over Gordeeva/Grinkov.

    Another factor is that FS is emotive as well as subjective to a degree. That, I think, is one of the reasons why I prefer this to, er, curling (apologies to curling fans out there), but it creates room for emotional arguments, more so than a match that was lost on a controversial foul call.

    What is also significant in this situation is that both nations have fallen in love with the two girls before/rather than the sport. Perhaps it is not just these two countries, as far as FS is concerned; maybe we notice the individuals first, their countries next and then the sport. Not a very good example and not relevant to FS, but the following, I think, is a lovely story.

    In men's 10000m speed skating, everyone KNEW the gold would go to Sven Kramer from Holland. Speed skating is HUGE in Holland, beyond most people's imagination. Kramer is unbelievably popular in his country. I mean, massive. He was skating last. With six pairs to go, this Korean skater, who had won silver in 5000m, is having a skate of his life. He actually overtakes the other skater's lap (unheard of at this level and quite embarrassing for the guy who also happens to be Dutch). Whenever this Korean boy skates past the Dutch crowd, do you know what they are doing? They are cheering him on, screaming their lungs out, because this guy is about to break the Olympic record, which he does. Then Kramer skates, makes the most ridiculous school-boy error (coach's fault!) and gets disqualified. He is devastated, the Korean guy gets the gold rather than silver (said afterwards he's happy about the gold but the victory feels incomplete because he won it through a stronger skater's mistake) and the Dutch crowd are still contratulating the medalists during the medal ceremony. They love the sport first and then their athletes who are good at it.

    Sorry I'm rambling. It's just that there seem to be some misunderstandings and unduly strong emotions, occasionally irrational, on this board and I wanted to share my take on it for what it's worth.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puppylove View Post
    I think I have a relatively unusual situation, so I would like to share it, if I may.

    Although I live in the UK and have spent well over a half of my life here, I am Korean. Two of my best friends, whom I met at school in England, are Japanese and I speak all three languages fluently. I have been a FS fan for over 30 years but am passionate about many other sports.

    Yes, there is no denying that there is a degree of deep-rooted animosity between the two countries. However, for most people, it is more of rivalry than hatred. We see it at work place, at school, in other sports - two top players ferociously competing but having not much against each other otherwise. Unfortunately, a small but significant sector in each nation do bear hatred and start sh*t-stirring whenever they see an opportunity, egging on others. Oh God, do the media love this! The rest of us range from disinterested to embarrassed. Do I root for Korea when they play against Japan in other sporting events? Of course I do - I'm Korean. Is it because I hate Japan? Nooo! I root for Korea regardless of who they play against, even if I know they are going to get absolutely thrashed! FS is different for me. My favorite female skater is Yuna at present, not because she is Korean but because I like her skating. My favourite male skater is Takahashi by miles. None of the pairs in recent years have stolen my heart because I still haven't got over Gordeeva/Grinkov.

    Another factor is that FS is emotive as well as subjective to a degree. That, I think, is one of the reasons why I prefer this to, er, curling (apologies to curling fans out there), but it creates room for emotional arguments, more so than a match that was lost on a controversial foul call.

    What is also significant in this situation is that both nations have fallen in love with the two girls before/rather than the sport. Perhaps it is not just these two countries, as far as FS is concerned; maybe we notice the individuals first, their countries next and then the sport. Not a very good example and not relevant to FS, but the following, I think, is a lovely story.

    In men's 10000m speed skating, everyone KNEW the gold would go to Sven Kramer from Holland. Speed skating is HUGE in Holland, beyond most people's imagination. Kramer is unbelievably popular in his country. I mean, massive. He was skating last. With six pairs to go, this Korean skater, who had won silver in 5000m, is having a skate of his life. He actually overtakes the other skater's lap (unheard of at this level and quite embarrassing for the guy who also happens to be Dutch). Whenever this Korean boy skates past the Dutch crowd, do you know what they are doing? They are cheering him on, screaming their lungs out, because this guy is about to break the Olympic record, which he does. Then Kramer skates, makes the most ridiculous school-boy error (coach's fault!) and gets disqualified. He is devastated, the Korean guy gets the gold rather than silver (said afterwards he's happy about the gold but the victory feels incomplete because he won it through a stronger skater's mistake) and the Dutch crowd are still contratulating the medalists during the medal ceremony. They love the sport first and then their athletes who are good at it.

    Sorry I'm rambling. It's just that there seem to be some misunderstandings and unduly strong emotions, occasionally irrational, on this board and I wanted to share my take on it for what it's worth.
    Thanks for sharing. That's kind of what I sense too -- that it's more rivalry than hatred. I mean there's a history that has created the tension that's left, but I sense that most people in Korea and Japan are focused on living their lives and not thinking a lot about how much they hate another country.

    And the other thing that feeds into this Korea and Japan nationalism stuff is that Mao and Yuna have had such a long competitive history. The media has followed these two skaters for more than five years. You had these two tossing tiles back an forth — the JGPF, Jr. Worlds, the GPF, Worlds titles and finally the Olympics.

    The good part of all this, though is that these two women have fuel a greater interest in figure skating in both countries and oddly enough the person who is probably most thankful for this is Johnny Weir, who has been able to skate in ice shows in Korea to pay for his training.

    Speak of Kramer...that was SO sad. To have the skate of his life and then go down on an error that his coach made!

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I sympathize with your situation, that you live in Japan(?), and encounter this slant---that Yuna's score was very big, and that the gap between Mao and Yuna should not have been so big---in the news. I'm sure I would hate to expose myself to Korean media right now.

    But you know, I've seen some stuff that's very rational. I saw Takahiko Kozuka's father being interviewed on Nagoya local television news. The two newscasters asked him to analyze and explain the 23 point difference, and he very clearly said that it was because Yuna had speed, and because Mao made two mistakes in the latter-half of the program. It was quite funny to watch because I could tell that the newscasters were so wanting him to say that the gap was too big, make some critical comment about the judging criteria, but he didn't do that at all.


    I also saw a piece on Zero on how both Mao and Yuna are receiving a heroine's welcome back in their respective countries. I learnt that Mao went to Chukyo University and was welcomed back in the auditorium by her university, and that Yuna had lunch with the Korean President after which she took a plane back to Canada. The comment they chose to include was one where Yuna said that she would miss being with other athletes. I thought it was a nice well-balanced piece. It was saying, 'Okay, the Olympics is over. Let's move on.'

    I think until yesterday, there was alot of emphasis on the 23-point gap, but today, the focus is mostly on Mao's smiling image and the fact that she is already declaring her desire to participate in Sochi, and her determination to beat Yuna or her score even if she retires.

    Incidentally, I also saw Mao being interviewed live by the local station, and the newscaster asked Mao at the end of the interview to say something to the fans, and she said something like, 'I want to thank everyone for cheering for me, and I am happy that I got the bronze medal, and...' at which point the interviewer intervened and said, 'Um, wait, wait, it's silver', and Mao said, 'Oh, um, well...' and the interviewer turned to the camera and said 'She's tired. Okay, we'll edit that out, this isn't a live interview. Just go on' and so she said, 'Yes. I'm glad I got the silver medal and I hope to do better at World's and go to Sochi. Thank you very much.'

    She must have been so jetlagged, and then to go through an endless number of interviews that ask the same questions over and over again. Her (and other star athletes who must go through the same thing) stamina and patience really amazes me. In every interview and photo I saw, she never lost her sunny smile. But her slip of the tongue kind of indicated to me that Mao's thoughts are not on the medal that she got but already on what lays ahead.

    Thank you very much for sharing this. See, most people, including professionals and media, in all countries are rational and sane!

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarukou View Post
    A 3T has the same base value whether done after a quad, or a single jump. It doesn't matter. Her jumping layout has actually gotten easier these past 2-3 seasons or so with the exclusion of her 3Lo.
    The original poster I quoted said Yuna used the same jump layouts every year which is not true at all.
    Of course, it will not make any difference base value wise-which many posters find as one of the flaws COP has-just like you said. However it is unquestionable truth that 3Lz+3T is more difficult than 3F+3T or 3T+3T.
    Most of 3-3 skaters do 3T-3T even they have other triples in their arsenals because it is simply more difficult to add that 3T after more difficult jumps.
    That and the transitions in and/or out of her jumps just showcase Yuna's mastery of the jumps.
    I just wish Yuna could get some due respects she deserves.

    puppylove, thanks for sharing your experience. It was nice to read.
    Last edited by gourry; 03-03-2010 at 04:33 PM.

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    Wow~ This is a serious issue. So Japanese media actually spied judges with hidden cam while they were scoring? Well, I won't be surprised if JSF receives a major penalty because of this. If I were the judge, I would be really pissed.

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    Hey guys, what does "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Association of Copyright for Computer Software" mean? Because that's what shows up now when I click the link posted on the first page of this thread. Oh, well. There's still the non-Korean subtitled one:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxAN5rYRqaU (Holy cow, 151,000+ hits already.)

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    The only reason Daisuke lost is because he tried a harder jump than Evan. And even so, in the SP, Takahashi still placed BELOW Evan when both of them skated clean, even though most people aruged that Takahashi had better skating skills. Yet, you hardly heard a peep from the Japanese fans.

    It seems there's a inferiority complex to Westerners in Japanese culture and I don't think it's a healthy mindset.
    As for the SP, Daisuke skated clean but not perfectly. His 3F-3T was not good than usual. Takeshi Honda worried about the UR.

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