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Thread: Isn't taping the judges prohibited?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by teru2bozu View Post
    Take hidden camera of judge in the Olympics...it's very funny. This video itself violate rule of Olympics. Content of the video is not important. They broke the rule.
    ITA.

    It doesn't really really matter whatever Japanese media broadcast, in so far as it is just their opinion. Surely, they can have their own slant. But a hidden cam is a serious infringement of ISU Rules and the Olympic spirit. I can't believe that.

  2. #77
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    Although I don't think there is any conspiracy behind the rule changes, but I gotta say for skaters to now win based on GOE alone is kinda crazy. It seems that skaters now have to have to fit a much higher standard than what was asked ages ago, and I do agree that this takes out a lot of the originality of figure skating. I feel different skaters jump in different ways but it seems that speed and height are the main factors that go into GOE. I just feel that a lot of unique and great skaters (e.g Lu Chen) in the past may not have survived under the CoP system because their techniques weren't as polished.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    To me, it seems like that the new CoP was created to favor a certain style of skating over another, a certain skater over another. Because in the four years that i've watched it, it's changed, and every time it changed, Yuna became harder to beat, and now she's impossible to beat. And then there's just alot of circumstantial evidence, Phil Hersh, NBC, the discourses that kept on cropping up on this board and on other boards, Scott Hamilton, stuff like that that just made me think that the judgement system is not at all neutral, that people create a criteria to allocate the CoP numbers that legitimate subjective choices that are being made for, well, I would imagine, financial gains.
    A skater being dominant does not mean the system is corrupt.
    Other skaters will have good chances to win if they perform big, fully rotated triple-triples on correct edges.

    Changes to CoP last several years were steps to encourage correct technique and making Figure Skating better IMO.
    I still remember being ticked off by Ando winning the 07 world with 4 triple lutzs and under-rotated 3-3, without any choreography nor transitions.
    Would you be happy to see that again?

    BTW, not all changes gave advantages to Kim.
    Last year, base value for 3A was increased to current 8.2 from 7.5 IIRC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Although I don't think there is any conspiracy behind the rule changes, but I gotta say for skaters to now win based on GOE alone is kinda crazy. It seems that skaters now have to have to fit a much higher standard than what was asked ages ago, and I do agree that this takes out a lot of the originality of figure skating. I feel different skaters jump in different ways but it seems that speed and height are the main factors that go into GOE. I just feel that a lot of unique and great skaters (e.g Lu Chen) in the past may not have survived under the CoP system because their techniques weren't as polished.
    Well it is a lot more difficult to execute a jump with height and speed than it is without (just look at Kostner). Lu Chen was very unique in her artistry, but even under 6.0, I would imagine she would have lost to someone with the same level of artistry but more impressive jumps.

    As Button said recently, Yuna is a unique combination of artistry and great, clean technical ability. That is why she may seem unbeatable under the current system. But her superior artistry did not save her from coming second to Rachael Flatt in the SA LP when she couldn't pull off all the jumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    BTW, not all changes gave advantages to Kim.
    Last year, base value for 3A was increased to current 8.2 from 7.5 IIRC.
    And this year it seems they're relaxing the penalties on underrotations, so this will benefit Mao as she will be more tempted to bring back her 3-3. Mao is fixing her technique and once that process is over, I have no doubt she will re-emerge as a favorite. It just happened that the Olympics were in the middle of her rebuilding process. Not that she and her team are blameless though, they could have done a much better job maximizing her score with her current technique. Mao just decided to go after the glory of landing 3As at the Olympics, and achieved it so kudos to her!
    Last edited by yunasashafan; 03-02-2010 at 08:53 AM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by yunasashafan View Post
    Well it is a lot more difficult to execute a jump with height and speed than it is without (just look at Kostner). Lu Chen was very unique in her artistry, but even under 6.0, I would imagine she would have lost to someone with the same level of artistry but more impressive jumps.

    As Button said recently, Yuna is a unique combination of artistry and great, clean technical ability. That is why she may seem unbeatable under the current system. But her superior artistry did not save her from coming second to Rachael Flatt in the SA LP when she couldn't pull off all the jumps.
    Perhaps. But it does do big disadvantage to a skater like Weir though. Anyways, I feel Mao just didn't work the system well. She may not have the technical precision as Yuna but I think there was a reason she was more competitive 2 seasons ago. I think Mao is just able to do more in a program. Maybe it was the quantity vs quality thing but it was working for a well, but of course program helps.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Although I don't think there is any conspiracy behind the rule changes, but I gotta say for skaters to now win based on GOE alone is kinda crazy. It seems that skaters now have to have to fit a much higher standard than what was asked ages ago, and I do agree that this takes out a lot of the originality of figure skating. I feel different skaters jump in different ways but it seems that speed and height are the main factors that go into GOE. I just feel that a lot of unique and great skaters (e.g Lu Chen) in the past may not have survived under the CoP system because their techniques weren't as polished.
    Originality is not a victim of GOE. It's a victim of CoP. As a concept, GOE is great, but the system is young and it may need some tweaking. Is it fair for Caroline Zhang's 3F to get the same points as Yu-na's? I don't think so. Think of all the time and effort Yu-na put into perfecting her jumping technique. It should be rewarded. I don't, however, think speed and height are the only main factors. Those are the most prominent, as they're evident in even the layman's eyes. Very few casual observers can distinguish between a fully-rotated jump and an URed jump. How could we expect them to know the more subtle distinguishing aspects of a high GOE-garnering jump, such as position changing (the tano), good/bad extension, transitions, etc. Look at Joannie. She may lack a 3-3 and a 3A, but her TES is very high. Her jumps are great, but her transitions are amazing.

    I have another question too. What else constitutes a good jump? I really don't see how the GOE points could be changed, as I define a fine jump to be one with great height, ice coverage, speed, extension and transitions. Correct technique, of course, would follow the base value, as inadequacy is penalized. GOE, however, is rewarded for exceptional quality. Perhaps we should include a GOE bulletpoint for risk. What other suggestions do you propose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yunasashafan View Post
    I agree with you that COP has been changing over the last few years, and has been increasingly penalizing (wrong edge take-offs, under-rotations, and so on...). I understand the frustration, especially since Mao has been the most affected by it since she was billed so highly in 2006. But to suggest that the changes have been tailored to favor Yuna is unacceptable. All skaters are being dinged, including Yuna herself sometimes. While Yuna has been known to have textbook technique since her junior years, Mao was the victim of doing too much too soon, at the expense of technique in some areas (flutz, underrotations). Her flaws were initially unaccounted for because of the wow factor of her big tricks. As the system moved more and more towards enforcing clean technique, Mao got penaliized more and more and Yuna started to emerge as a favorite. The only influence Yuna may have had on COP is that she showed that it is indeed possible to have great technique while excecuting impressive "tricks." Unlike Mao, Yuna and her team have done a great job adapting to the system and growing with it (not the opposite). Just compare Yuna's transitions in and out of the jumps now to what they were in 2006, and you'll see what I mean. Mao, on the other hand, has openly admitted to dumbing down her transitions in order to be able to execute the 3As.

    Also, people often forget that the IJS had been in use for less than 3 years before 2006. So the period from 2006 to 2010 accounts for more than half of its lifetime. Therefore, it is only very natural that the 2010 version is so different from the 2006 one.
    I would be more willing to accept that it's only about Mao having poorer basic skating skills and Yuna, superior skating skills, if judges were more consistent with their under-rotation calls, edge calls. And there are rules about jumps that have nothing to do with measuring basic skating skills that I find strange.

    Anyway, it feels like even the notion of 'basic skating skill' is Yuna-centered. How Yuna skates, how she uses her edges is superior 'basic skating skills', and how others do it are less superior basic skating skills.

    And then when the 'basic skating skills' score is so great that it can cancel out two jump mistakes that she makes so that she can still win, it just seems like the percentage of the score that's allocated to 'basic skating skills' is much too much for someone like me to comprehend.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Do I agree with what they did is the question that's being put to me personally right?

    I'm going to be completely honest. I'm ambivalent. I can't say that they were wrong. I can't say that they were right.

    To me, it seems like that the new CoP was created to favor a certain style of skating over another, a certain skater over another. Because in the four years that i've watched it, it's changed, and every time it changed, Yuna became harder to beat, and now she's impossible to beat. And then there's just alot of circumstantial evidence, Phil Hersh, NBC, the discourses that kept on cropping up on this board and on other boards, Scott Hamilton, stuff like that that just made me think that the judgement system is not at all neutral, that people create a criteria to allocate the CoP numbers that legitimate subjective choices that are being made for, well, I would imagine, financial gains.

    And so I may be wrong, I may be just paranoid, but I had this impression. And then against this what I see as a 'wrong' situation, there's this news piece. And I do think their style of editing is very sensationalist, just like The Mirror or other similar gossip media formats, but the problem is, I don't disagree with what they said. So I can criticize their style or presentation, but I can't criticize their major points, and I don't disagree with the sentiment that might had led this television station to do what they did.

    So if you ask me if I think it was okay that they secretly filmed judges, well, I can only go so far as to say that I think if the judging system weren't anonymous, I would find it more wrong. In other words, if they had filmed the Korean judge as an individual, then they would have breached her right to privacy. But anonymous judging has these corrupt innuendos, so I think, this can be considered a form of investigative reporting. After all, Footsiegate would never had occurred if a Canadian television crew hadn't secretly filmed judges. Did the Canadian crew know before filming that they were going to film a scene of corruption?

    Figure skating judgements already have this reputation for being made under the table. I don't understand why they just don't get rid of anonymous judging. And I wish judging things like under-rotation, edge calls, PCS, GOEs were consistent and more clearly defined. And there are these bizarre rules, like you get more points for rotating and then falling rather than landing but under-rotating slightly. What's that? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

    I'm sorry that I can't be any clearer.
    I appreciate your analysis, but feel that it's too sophisticated for this cheap program.

    I don't think that this program had any journalistic purposes to investigate and reveal anything new or to do meaningful problem presentation. They happen to have impressive interviewees such as Plush, Orser, and an Olympic judge. So these FS experts talked their opinions. But the program per se is merely an introduction of the basic concept of GoE to casual viewers who couldn't fully understand the large score gap.

    I find it regrettable that they filmed the judge and Mao's email, and it is even more so that these images served no meaningful purposes but to attract the audience attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Perhaps. But it does do big disadvantage to a skater like Weir though. Anyways, I feel Mao just didn't work the system well. She may not have the technical precision as Yuna but I think there was a reason she was more competitive 2 seasons ago. I think Mao is just able to do more in a program. Maybe it was the quantity vs quality thing but it was working for a well, but of course program helps.
    Weir also put himself at a disadvantage by refusing to play with the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I think Mao is just able to do more in a program. Maybe it was the quantity vs quality thing but it was working for a well, but of course program helps.
    ITA. Her programs under RA were more smartly constructed. Anyway, I am sure Mao will learn her lesson and re-emerge as a favorite pretty soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I would be more willing to accept that it's only about Mao having poorer basic skating skills and Yuna, superior skating skills, if judges were more consistent with their under-rotation calls, edge calls. And there are rules about jumps that have nothing to do with measuring basic skating skills that I find strange.

    Anyway, it feels like even the notion of 'basic skating skill' is Yuna-centered. How Yuna skates, how she uses her edges is superior 'basic skating skills', and how others do it are less superior basic skating skills.

    And then when the 'basic skating skills' score is so great that it can cancel out two jump mistakes that she makes so that she can still win, it just seems like the percentage of the score that's allocated to 'basic skating skills' is much too much for someone like me to comprehend.
    That's not totally true. Kostner and Lepsito often receive high praise for their skating skills and are rewarding accordingly in PCS.
    Last edited by yunasashafan; 03-02-2010 at 09:02 AM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by yunasashafan View Post
    sorry.. double post
    I was thinking more of the GOEs. That she can get high grades of execution means she has superior basic skating skills right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Anyway, it feels like even the notion of 'basic skating skill' is Yuna-centered. How Yuna skates, how she uses her edges is superior 'basic skating skills', and how others do it are less superior basic skating skills.

    And then when the 'basic skating skills' score is so great that it can cancel out two jump mistakes that she makes so that she can still win, it just seems like the percentage of the score that's allocated to 'basic skating skills' is much too much for someone like me to comprehend.
    You're making a lot of assumptions that can't be backed with facts. Let's look at the Olympics SP, where both came clean (because PCS is indeed influenced by whether a program is clean or not). Mao got 8.25 for skating skills. Yu-na got 8.60. That calculates 0.4375 difference in the SP. Yu-na got 33.80 for PCS. Mao got 32.28. That's a 1.52 difference. Unless there's a jump Yu-na does that counts less than 1.52 (and the last time I checked, there was none), your argument is invalid. And how are basic skating skills Yu-na centered? Mao's received very good scores for this category as well. You should look up your facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I was thinking more of the GOEs. That she can get high grades of execution means she has superior basic skating skills right?
    well, I tend to think that GOEs reward the proper use of skating skills to achieve effects such as jump height... Lepisto for example does not always achieve high jumps despite having great skating skills. I thinks GOEs on jumps are more skating skills in the air if you know what I mean

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Do I agree with what they did is the question that's being put to me personally right?

    I'm going to be completely honest. I'm ambivalent. I can't say that they were wrong. I can't say that they were right.

    To me, it seems like that the new CoP was created to favor a certain style of skating over another, a certain skater over another. Because in the four years that i've watched it, it's changed, and every time it changed, Yuna became harder to beat, and now she's impossible to beat. And then there's just alot of circumstantial evidence, Phil Hersh, NBC, the discourses that kept on cropping up on this board and on other boards, Scott Hamilton, stuff like that that just made me think that the judgement system is not at all neutral, that people create a criteria to allocate the CoP numbers that legitimate subjective choices that are being made for, well, I would imagine, financial gains.

    And so I may be wrong, I may be just paranoid, but I had this impression. And then against this what I see as a 'wrong' situation, there's this news piece. And I do think their style of editing is very sensationalist, just like The Mirror or other similar gossip media formats, but the problem is, I don't disagree with what they said. So I can criticize their style or presentation, but I can't criticize their major points, and I don't disagree with the sentiment that might had led this television station to do what they did.

    So if you ask me if I think it was okay that they secretly filmed judges, well, I can only go so far as to say that I think if the judging system weren't anonymous, I would find it more wrong. In other words, if they had filmed the Korean judge as an individual, then they would have breached her right to privacy. But anonymous judging has these corrupt innuendos, so I think, this can be considered a form of investigative reporting. After all, Footsiegate would never had occurred if a Canadian television crew hadn't secretly filmed judges. Did the Canadian crew know before filming that they were going to film a scene of corruption?

    Figure skating judgements already have this reputation for being made under the table. I don't understand why they just don't get rid of anonymous judging. And I wish judging things like under-rotation, edge calls, PCS, GOEs were consistent and more clearly defined. And there are these bizarre rules, like you get more points for rotating and then falling rather than landing but under-rotating slightly. What's that? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

    I'm sorry that I can't be any clearer.

    I agree with you on your first point; I can't say that they were wrong (is it actually written down in the book of Olympic rules that you can't secretly film judges - I really honestly don't know) and I can't say that they were right (I don't see the point of it).

    As for the rules being changed to favour certain skaters, I look at it differently. Rules change, and certain skaters then make changes accordingly to rake up more points and others don't for their own reasons which may or may not pay off. For example, when the edge call became stricter (which I don't think was unfair since all the jumps are already clearly defined in terms of how they should be done), Yuna didn't have much to do (already correct edges most of the time), Miki started busting her backside to get them right (had an awful season but eventually succeeded), and Mao decided to concentrate on the big-money jumps that she didn't have problems with. Furthermore, although I loved Yuna's Scheherazade, I don't think it would have been strong enough for the Olys even if skated clean. She can't suddenly start practising TA or 4T with less than a year to go, so they work with what is essentially a similar jump layout but with clever transitions in and out of those jumps to make them technically more difficult and more impressive to watch. It is a strategy and the coach's responsibility. Athletes do the same but in a different way even in other events where no judging is involved beyond calling fouls and disqualifications. This is why I would love to see Mao with a different team.

    As for the intense pro-Yuna commentaries and articles, there must be various reasons. Commercial? Of course! Regardless of who wins, it is thought by many to be the most glamorous event in the winter olympics, just like men's downhill skiing is considered to be THE event. A beautiful young girl wins with two clean skates - sell, sell, sell! It would have been the same, whoever won. I did notice the amount of gushing in NBC coverage, though. I suspect it is at least partly because of Brian orser being friends with some of these people. Personally I don't like listening to these, which is why I think Robin Cousins on BBC rocks; it's like listening to a very good teacher who is passionate about maths but in a nice way But then, as long as Brian Orser doesn't have personal friendship with the judges, the only potential sufferers are TV audience.

    With regards to the COP rules, if certain teams feel that they are unclear/biased and disadvantage their skaters, they should officially demand revision through their national federations INBETWEEN seasons. Although I was heartbroken to see Mao so upset straight after her skate, I feel a huge respect for her because she was upset about her own performance rather than "I deserved the gold more", and she seems to be thinking already about doing even better in the future.

    As for the political stuff, I have absolutely no knowledge about what really goes on and I don't trust the occasional media claims from any countries, so I have no opinion.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlgpffps View Post
    Originality is not a victim of GOE. It's a victim of CoP. As a concept, GOE is great, but the system is young and it may need some tweaking. Is it fair for Caroline Zhang's 3F to get the same points as Yu-na's? I don't think so. Think of all the time and effort Yu-na put into perfecting her jumping technique. It should be rewarded. I don't, however, think speed and height are the only main factors. Those are the most prominent, as they're evident in even the layman's eyes. Very few casual observers can distinguish between a fully-rotated jump and an URed jump. How could we expect them to know the more subtle distinguishing aspects of a high GOE-garnering jump, such as position changing (the tano), good/bad extension, transitions, etc. Look at Joannie. She may lack a 3-3 and a 3A, but her TES is very high. Her jumps are great, but her transitions are amazing.

    I have another question too. What else constitutes a good jump? I really don't see how the GOE points could be changed, as I define a fine jump to be one with great height, ice coverage, speed, extension and transitions. Correct technique, of course, would follow the base value, as inadequacy is penalized. GOE, however, is rewarded for exceptional quality. Perhaps we should include a GOE bulletpoint for risk. What other suggestions do you propose?
    Oh. I don't mean GOE shouldn't be awarded. I just think it should be rewarded more consistently and perhaps shouldn't be weighted so heavily. For example, Mirai's jumps have speed and height but she doesn't get rewarded for them as much as other top contenders. I think graceful landings should be rewarded IMAO. For example, I wouldn't give Flatt's jumps high GOE even if she gets the height because her landings are so sloppy and it is obvious to a viewer's eyes.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I was thinking more of the GOEs. That she can get high grades of execution means she has superior basic skating skills right?
    Oh ok. I'm sorry for my post then. You said basic skating skills, so I assumed PCS.

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