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Thread: Isn't taping the judges prohibited?

  1. #121
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Could you please give us the sources of the TV programs that you think have implied corruption and let us know how generalizable that is among the Japanese TV programs.
    You mean in addition to the program that secretly spied on judges and insinuated that Mao was robbed b/c she didn't get more GOE compared to Yuna, who BTW had been dubbed as being "expressive" but particularly technically strong by the media in order to hype up Mao's 3As?

    After Mao & Yuna's SP, there was another show -- around noon...which channel? I cannot recall since I was channel surfing, but I think it was RCC or TSS (?) -- that had Fumie Suguri and one other expert, whom I believe is a judge from Japan plus three other very casual viewers (tarento -- which is ironic since many have no real talent). They went over the SP protocols & even tho Fumie & the expert explained what the judges are looking for and the type of things you need to do to get high GOE, the others on the panel insisted that they don't see the difference in quality, etc., implying that even after the explanation & jump comparisons, somehow GOE is some number that the judges pull out of thin air, and for whatever reason Yuna just gets more of it even though she can't land 3A.

    There were a couple other programs that insinuated that Yuna's score (or the difference between her score & Mao's) was too high or that she had unfair advantages and that she doesn't have any real technical abilities, just some "expressiveness" as though her jumps and combinations are easy. They said Mao has the real technique and even dubbed their figure skating programs "technique" vs. "expressivesess", which is patently false becuase though Yuna doesn't do 3A, she has the most difficult 3/3 combination jumps and so on.

    It's almost surreal because many programs don't want to seem to give up the idea that maybe Yuna can jump as well as or better than Mao except for 3As.

    Since then I've stopped watching TV programs altogether b/c I just don't want to become more upset. I dont' watch TV anyway except for some evening news on NHK and FS competitions. (I usually skip exhibitions as well.)

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    You mean in addition to the program that secretly spied on judges and insinuated that Mao was robbed b/c she didn't get more GOE compared to Yuna, who BTW had been dubbed as being "expressive" but particularly technically strong by the media in order to hype up Mao's 3As?

    After Mao & Yuna's SP, there was another show -- around noon...which channel? I cannot recall since I was channel surfing, but I think it was RCC or TSS (?) -- that had Fumie Suguri and one other expert, whom I believe is a judge from Japan plus three other very casual viewers (tarento -- which is ironic since many have no real talent). They went over the SP protocols & even tho Fumie & the expert explained what the judges are looking for and the type of things you need to do to get high GOE, the others on the panel insisted that they don't see the difference in quality, etc., implying that even after the explanation & jump comparisons, somehow GOE is some number that the judges pull out of thin air, and for whatever reason Yuna just gets more of it even though she can't land 3A.

    There were a couple other programs that insinuated that Yuna's score (or the difference between her score & Mao's) was too high or that she had unfair advantages and that she doesn't have any real technical abilities, just some "expressiveness" as though her jumps and combinations are easy. They said Mao has the real technique and even dubbed their figure skating programs "technique" vs. "expressivesess", which is patently false becuase though Yuna doesn't do 3A, she has the most difficult 3/3 combination jumps and so on.

    It's almost surreal because many programs don't want to seem to give up the idea that maybe Yuna can jump as well as or better than Mao except for 3As.

    Since then I've stopped watching TV programs altogether b/c I just don't want to become more upset. I dont' watch TV anyway except for some evening news on NHK and FS competitions. (I usually skip exhibitions as well.)
    How quickly we forget how many Yuna fans in Korea, as well as the media, flew off the handle when Yuna had a downgrade at 4CC!

  3. #123
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    How quickly we forget how many Yuna fans in Korea, as well as the media, flew off the handle when Yuna had a downgrade at 4CC!
    You mean GPF this year?

    They've objected to the UR call, but I don't remember them trying to tear down another skater's accomplishment and hard-work.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    You mean GPF this year?

    They've objected to the UR call, but I don't remember them trying to tear down another skater's accomplishment and hard-work.
    Sorry, yes GPF. You have a selective memory then, but I'm not surprised.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Could you please give us the sources of the TV programs that you think have implied corruption and let us know how generalizable that is among the Japanese TV programs?

    You could see this kind of nastiness reflected in skating forums as well as youtube by Japanese skating fans. So, it would come to me as no surprise that they riled up at least in part by how the Japanese media is portraying the competition.

    think that few ppl would disagree with the placement. It's the large score gap between the winner and the rest that some casual viewers and core fans were puzzled by (not just in Japan as you know). But not many would be so distrustful as to think of any judging corruption or bribery. Explanations by skating experts would help.
    Why are you puzzled? Yuna has been breaking records all season, and you're surprised now that she'd have a large margin of victory over Mao? I think Scott Hamilton put it best when he said that Yuna has all the qualities that judges look for in a skater and that's why she receives such high scores.

    I find it very surprising that Japanese skating fans have no sense of equal outrage over the results at men's. There's such a huge discrepancy in the reactions. It's like they don't mind being beaten by an American and have somewhat of a subservient and docile attitude to them, but they feel such outrage at being beaten by a Korean and act if they are in all ways superior than the Korean skater.
    Last edited by Figure88; 03-03-2010 at 11:33 AM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    After Mao & Yuna's SP, there was another show -- around noon...which channel? I cannot recall since I was channel surfing, but I think it was RCC or TSS (?) -- that had Fumie Suguri and one other expert, whom I believe is a judge from Japan plus three other very casual viewers (tarento -- which is ironic since many have no real talent). They went over the SP protocols & even tho Fumie & the expert explained what the judges are looking for and the type of things you need to do to get high GOE, the others on the panel insisted that they don't see the difference in quality, etc., implying that even after the explanation & jump comparisons, somehow GOE is some number that the judges pull out of thin air, and for whatever reason Yuna just gets more of it even though she can't land 3A.
    I watched this program by chance. It is Hiruobi broadcasted by TBS. The expert was Shin Okazaki, the ISU technical specialist. He explained the gap of the score between Yuna's SP and Mao's SP intelligibly and concluded they were scored fairly.

    If I remember correctly, yes, the emcee said at the end of this corner "I don't understand the difference(between Yuna's program and Mao's program) still, but...". If you catch this directly, you may think he still doen't understand, but judging from his tone I think he would like to say " I don't fully understand still because I'm not an expert, but if Mr. Okazaki says it's fair, maybe it is." The subtle difference of nuance are there between you and I. The TV program you mentioned would help the understanding for the SP score, I think.

    As for the other TV programs you mentioned, I can't specify them, so I have no idea for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    Since I dont' watch TV anyway except for some evening news on NHK and FS competitions. (I usually skip exhibitions as well.)
    This may be good for you......

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    You mean in addition to the program that secretly spied on judges and insinuated that Mao was robbed b/c she didn't get more GOE compared to Yuna, who BTW had been dubbed as being "expressive" but particularly technically strong by the media in order to hype up Mao's 3As?

    After Mao & Yuna's SP, there was another show -- around noon...which channel? I cannot recall since I was channel surfing, but I think it was RCC or TSS (?) -- that had Fumie Suguri and one other expert, whom I believe is a judge from Japan plus three other very casual viewers (tarento -- which is ironic since many have no real talent). They went over the SP protocols & even tho Fumie & the expert explained what the judges are looking for and the type of things you need to do to get high GOE, the others on the panel insisted that they don't see the difference in quality, etc., implying that even after the explanation & jump comparisons, somehow GOE is some number that the judges pull out of thin air, and for whatever reason Yuna just gets more of it even though she can't land 3A.

    There were a couple other programs that insinuated that Yuna's score (or the difference between her score & Mao's) was too high or that she had unfair advantages and that she doesn't have any real technical abilities, just some "expressiveness" as though her jumps and combinations are easy. They said Mao has the real technique and even dubbed their figure skating programs "technique" vs. "expressivesess", which is patently false becuase though Yuna doesn't do 3A, she has the most difficult 3/3 combination jumps and so on.

    It's almost surreal because many programs don't want to seem to give up the idea that maybe Yuna can jump as well as or better than Mao except for 3As.

    Since then I've stopped watching TV programs altogether b/c I just don't want to become more upset. I dont' watch TV anyway except for some evening news on NHK and FS competitions. (I usually skip exhibitions as well.)
    I sympathize with your situation, that you live in Japan(?), and encounter this slant---that Yuna's score was very big, and that the gap between Mao and Yuna should not have been so big---in the news. I'm sure I would hate to expose myself to Korean media right now.

    But you know, I've seen some stuff that's very rational. I saw Takahiko Kozuka's father being interviewed on Nagoya local television news. The two newscasters asked him to analyze and explain the 23 point difference, and he very clearly said that it was because Yuna had speed, and because Mao made two mistakes in the latter-half of the program. It was quite funny to watch because I could tell that the newscasters were so wanting him to say that the gap was too big, make some critical comment about the judging criteria, but he didn't do that at all.


    I also saw a piece on Zero on how both Mao and Yuna are receiving a heroine's welcome back in their respective countries. I learnt that Mao went to Chukyo University and was welcomed back in the auditorium by her university, and that Yuna had lunch with the Korean President after which she took a plane back to Canada. The comment they chose to include was one where Yuna said that she would miss being with other athletes. I thought it was a nice well-balanced piece. It was saying, 'Okay, the Olympics is over. Let's move on.'

    I think until yesterday, there was alot of emphasis on the 23-point gap, but today, the focus is mostly on Mao's smiling image and the fact that she is already declaring her desire to participate in Sochi, and her determination to beat Yuna or her score even if she retires.

    Incidentally, I also saw Mao being interviewed live by the local station, and the newscaster asked Mao at the end of the interview to say something to the fans, and she said something like, 'I want to thank everyone for cheering for me, and I am happy that I got the bronze medal, and...' at which point the interviewer intervened and said, 'Um, wait, wait, it's silver', and Mao said, 'Oh, um, well...' and the interviewer turned to the camera and said 'She's tired. Okay, we'll edit that out, this isn't a live interview. Just go on' and so she said, 'Yes. I'm glad I got the silver medal and I hope to do better at World's and go to Sochi. Thank you very much.'

    She must have been so jetlagged, and then to go through an endless number of interviews that ask the same questions over and over again. Her (and other star athletes who must go through the same thing) stamina and patience really amazes me. In every interview and photo I saw, she never lost her sunny smile. But her slip of the tongue kind of indicated to me that Mao's thoughts are not on the medal that she got but already on what lays ahead.

  8. #128
    Custom Title Morning Glory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    I find it very surprising that Japanese skating fans have no sense of equal outrage over the results at men's. There's such a huge discrepancy in the reactions. It's like they don't mind being beaten by an American and have somewhat of a subservient and docile attitude to them, but they feel such outrage at being beaten by a Korean and act if they are in all ways superior than the Korean skater.
    I'm not surprised. The reason is clear.
    Gold-- Skated cleanly with 3-3s
    Silver--Skated almost cleanly with 4-3
    Daisuke--Failed quad and without 3-3s (in vain due to the UR)

    There are some discussions who should win, but that are between Evan and Plushenko, not Daisuke. If Daisuke with clean skate including quad and 3-3s was defeated, there will be some argument in Japan, I think.

    As for the point you mentioned, I mean the nationality, I don't deny it though. Not all, but some are.

  9. #129
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    You mean in addition to the program that secretly spied on judges and insinuated that Mao was robbed b/c she didn't get more GOE compared to Yuna, who BTW had been dubbed as being "expressive" but particularly technically strong by the media in order to hype up Mao's 3As?

    After Mao & Yuna's SP, there was another show -- around noon...which channel? I cannot recall since I was channel surfing, but I think it was RCC or TSS (?) -- that had Fumie Suguri and one other expert, whom I believe is a judge from Japan plus three other very casual viewers (tarento -- which is ironic since many have no real talent). They went over the SP protocols & even tho Fumie & the expert explained what the judges are looking for and the type of things you need to do to get high GOE, the others on the panel insisted that they don't see the difference in quality, etc., implying that even after the explanation & jump comparisons, somehow GOE is some number that the judges pull out of thin air, and for whatever reason Yuna just gets more of it even though she can't land 3A.

    There were a couple other programs that insinuated that Yuna's score (or the difference between her score & Mao's) was too high or that she had unfair advantages and that she doesn't have any real technical abilities, just some "expressiveness" as though her jumps and combinations are easy. They said Mao has the real technique and even dubbed their figure skating programs "technique" vs. "expressivesess", which is patently false becuase though Yuna doesn't do 3A, she has the most difficult 3/3 combination jumps and so on.

    It's almost surreal because many programs don't want to seem to give up the idea that maybe Yuna can jump as well as or better than Mao except for 3As.

    Since then I've stopped watching TV programs altogether b/c I just don't want to become more upset. I dont' watch TV anyway except for some evening news on NHK and FS competitions. (I usually skip exhibitions as well.)
    Thanks. I agree that these programs do not seem to have a decent understanding or acknowledgement of Yuna's techniques. The programs sound cheaply made and I wouldn't want to watch these programs, either. That said, I don't get any bribery or corruption theories in your description of the programs.

  10. #130
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    I don't live in Japan or Korea, so I haven't watched the television programs.

    I do want to observe what I'm seeing here is the difference in perception. There is a group of people (including our media here in the U.S. and Canada) that seem to believe that what is driving this is this bitterness between Korea and Japan because of the past and so forth. There's another group that believes that such belief is exaggerated and that a Korean skater beating a Japanese skater is a victory, it's only the "icing on the cake" not the "cake" itself.

    I went to Korea for a month-long professionals exchange in 2008 and my impression of the whole Japan and Korea relationship (based on talking to my host family) is while they're far from being best friends, it wouldn't be good to call them bitter enemies either. There have been efforts to reconcile and clearly the two countries support the other's economy in some way — I was in Seoul the first week of May, which is the Golden Week holiday for Japan. I had a really hard time getting a hotel room because of the Japanese tourists had booked most of the rooms well in advance.

    And in K-Pop you got artists like BOA who actually do better in Japan than in Korea. And also groups like Kara, T-ara and SNSD who also play concerts in Japan with great success.

    I don't know, I'm just processing my thoughts and just wanted to share and see what some of you guys thought.

  11. #131
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I sympathize with your situation, that you live in Japan(?), and encounter this slant---that Yuna's score was very big, and that the gap between Mao and Yuna should not have been so big---in the news. I'm sure I would hate to expose myself to Korean media right now.

    But you know, I've seen some stuff that's very rational. I saw Takahiko Kozuka's father being interviewed on Nagoya local television news. The two newscasters asked him to analyze and explain the 23 point difference, and he very clearly said that it was because Yuna had speed, and because Mao made two mistakes in the latter-half of the program. It was quite funny to watch because I could tell that the newscasters were so wanting him to say that the gap was too big, make some critical comment about the judging criteria, but he didn't do that at all.

    I also saw a piece on Zero on how both Mao and Yuna are receiving a heroine's welcome back in their respective countries. I learnt that Mao went to Chukyo University and was welcomed back in the auditorium by her university, and that Yuna had lunch with the Korean President after which she took a plane back to Canada. The comment they chose to include was one where Yuna said that she would miss being with other athletes. I thought it was a nice well-balanced piece. It was saying, 'Okay, the Olympics is over. Let's move on.'

    I think until yesterday, there was alot of emphasis on the 23-point gap, but today, the focus is mostly on Mao's smiling image and the fact that she is already declaring her desire to participate in Sochi, and her determination to beat Yuna or her score even if she retires.

    Incidentally, I also saw Mao being interviewed live by the local station, and the newscaster asked Mao at the end of the interview to say something to the fans, and she said something like, 'I want to thank everyone for cheering for me, and I am happy that I got the bronze medal, and...' at which point the interviewer intervened and said, 'Um, wait, wait, it's silver', and Mao said, 'Oh, um, well...' and the interviewer turned to the camera and said 'She's tired. Okay, we'll edit that out, this isn't a live interview. Just go on' and so she said, 'Yes. I'm glad I got the silver medal and I hope to do better at World's and go to Sochi. Thank you very much.'

    She must have been so jetlagged, and then to go through an endless number of interviews that ask the same questions over and over again. Her (and other star athletes who must go through the same thing) stamina and patience really amazes me. In every interview and photo I saw, she never lost her sunny smile. But her slip of the tongue kind of indicated to me that Mao's thoughts are not on the medal that she got but already on what lays ahead.
    Yes, I do live in Japan, and the slant has annoyed me. The media coverage has been annoying me for a while -- and it's not always about Yuna v. Mao thing either. It's because of their heavy emphasis on Mao doing 3As to the point that I wonder if she really really wants that jump or if she believes she has to do that jump b/c that's what everyone expects of her, and she looked just miserable / depressed in some of the interviews, and I felt so sad watching Mao implode in Russia then having to face the media afterward. (And let's not forget the media's shabby treatment of Miki, etc.)

    After LP, I felt like the media was turning evil and vindictive on Yuna, and for what? I don't know if it's the rivalry (JP hates losing to KR, and vice versa, and I think there are some JP people who really think that KR are subhuman or something) or if it's something else. Maybe they're mad that Yuna beat Mao by 23 points, but I'm pretty sure that if Mao had skated CLEAN LP, she would've easily scored over 140 b/c her TES would've gone up, and her PCS accordingly would've been much higher. Perhaps the media didn't want to upset Mao by focusing on the 2 mistakes that cost her so much, but they had to have known -- by looking at the protocols -- that the judges would've rewarded Mao handsomely for a clean LP. So I really cannot decide if they were just honestly that clueless or being willfully vindictive and evil.

    Which btw is one of the reasons why I've not watched any news for the last 2 days because I couldnt' stand it. (not to mention my casual FS viewer friends demanding to know why Mao was scored so low and Yuna so high...!)

    I"m glad Kozuka's father was fair (I didn't see that interview; I don't watch ZERO). I think that most experts understand the COP and how programs are being judged, and they tend to be much fairer and objective. I've never meant to imply that all Japanese peolpe are rude or mao-bots. If I've done that, I apologize.

    I'm glad people are now moving onto "let's be happy for Mao" stage.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    After LP, I felt like the media was turning evil and vindictive on Yuna, and for what? I don't know if it's the rivalry (JP hates losing to KR, and vice versa, and I think there are some JP people who really think that KR are subhuman or something) or if it's something else. Maybe they're mad that Yuna beat Mao by 23 points, but I'm pretty sure that if Mao had skated CLEAN LP, she would've easily scored over 140 b/c her TES would've gone up, and her PCS accordingly would've been much higher. Perhaps the media didn't want to upset Mao by focusing on the 2 mistakes that cost her so much, but they had to have known -- by looking at the protocols -- that the judges would've rewarded Mao handsomely for a clean LP. So I really cannot decide if they were just honestly that clueless or being willfully vindictive and evil.
    I really don't believe it's Yuna that's being questioned or blamed. I don't think that happened at all even in that piece where the judges were taped.

    It's more to do with the incomprehensability regarding the weight of the GOE in deciding who wins, almost regardless of jump and other contents. With previous scores as basis, you can estimate what perfect Mao would have scored. And you can estimate what imperfect Yuna would have scored. And I think that it was indicated, particularly after the short program, that Yuna with two jump mistakes would stll have beaten perfect Mao. It was said by many members of this forum, some who were Yuna fans, that the 5-point lead meant that Yuna's victory was pretty certain. And the perfect Mao would have included two triple-axels.

    So the question that Japanese media are asking, how can this be? And I really don't think it's just Japanese media that's asking this question.

    But anyway, regarding the nationalistic issue, well, I think it's like Britain vs. France, I suppose, or during the Cold War era, Russia vs. America. The closest nations develop strong sense of rivalries and that's just all there is to it. But it can sometimes be that the strongest rivals are the most similar from the point of view of the third party. If I were to tell a British lay person that they're really similar to the French, they'd think I'm just dumb and ignorant! So I guess this phenomenon must be very incomprehensible from an American or European perspective. But even the botting thing, it's actually nothing compared to football hooliganism.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
    I'm not surprised. The reason is clear.
    Gold-- Skated cleanly with 3-3s
    Silver--Skated almost cleanly with 4-3
    Daisuke--Failed quad and without 3-3s (in vain due to the UR)

    There are some discussions who should win, but that are between Evan and Plushenko, not Daisuke. If Daisuke with clean skate including quad and 3-3s was defeated, there will be some argument in Japan, I think.

    As for the point you mentioned, I mean the nationality, I don't deny it though. Not all, but some are.
    The only reason Daisuke lost is because he tried a harder jump than Evan. And even so, in the SP, Takahashi still placed BELOW Evan when both of them skated clean, even though most people aruged that Takahashi had better skating skills. Yet, you hardly heard a peep from the Japanese fans.

    It seems there's a inferiority complex to Westerners in Japanese culture and I don't think it's a healthy mindset.
    Last edited by Figure88; 03-03-2010 at 01:06 PM.

  14. #134
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    The media from both countries obviously likes to heat up this rivalry to the max if they could because it will get good ratings. The Japanese media is not nice to Yuna, but the Korean media has never been that nice to Mao either. I remember reading something about how Mao's lack of a religion is the reason she is losing(since Yuna is Cathollic). So it's pretty normal that the Japanese media will do these things after Mao lost to Yuna. I am pretty sure the Korean media would do similar bashing if the situation is reversed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    The only reason Daisuke lost is because he tried a harder jump than Evan. And even so, in the SP, Takahashi still placed BELOW Evan when both of them skated clean, even though most people aruged that Takahashi had better skating skills. Yet, you hardly heard a peep from the Japanese fans.
    My goodness, what is your point? First you're all irate because the Japanese media and citizens, according to you, are all "outraged" because Mao lost to Yuna. And now you're complaining because the Japanese are not "outraged" about Daisuke losing to Evan?

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