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Thread: Could a perfect Midori have beaten a perfect Yuna?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    You can't compare situations in the past. Midori and Kristi both flutzed, something that was NOT punished in 6.0 times, so Mao would have kept her flutz and been fine.
    Midori and Kristi did not flutz.

    Midori (and also Tonya) had textbook jumps. Kristi too had good jumps.
    Last edited by gio; 03-05-2010 at 02:21 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Midori also had the bad "luck" to be on practice sessions with Surya Bonaly who happened to do a back flip right in front of Midori while Midori's music was running on a practice session where she'd been doing the 3A+3T which freaked her out. Wonder why she fell during the competition?!
    I remember that but forgot which year it was. I also rememeber the bad collision - maybe at 1990 Wolrds when Midori lost to Jill (after again coming in 10th in the compulsaries).

    Midori was also under such incredible pressure in '92. Her coach changed her 3A to a 3Lz in the short and she fell on it - a jump she rarely missed. There are always factors these skaters face at the big competitions. Dealing with them is sometimes what separates the winner from the others.

    We can say Michelle had bad luck in '98. But ultimately Michelle's bad luck turned out to be named Tara.
    Last edited by janetfan; 03-05-2010 at 02:31 PM.

  3. #33
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    Yu-Na will beat Midori. Midori's GoE for jump will not be higher than that of Yu-Na's as Yu-Na has the height and distance. Yu-Na's entrance would be, if not better, as good as Midori's (I will absolutely vote for Yu-Na's). Midori, however, will get more points for 3A related jumps. Nevertheless, Yu-Na will easily top Midori on other elements such as spin, spiral, steps, etc., let alone PCS. Also, I think Yu-Na is faster than Midori, which should be a factor.

    Yu-Na is not as great a jumper as Midori. She is not as dramatic as Witt. Nor is she as graceful as Kwan. But, Yu-Na is pretty much most versatile among the ones I have seen. She is pretty much unbeatable under the current system that emphasizes the whole package.

    I am not sure what happened to her 3A. All I heard was she got injured practicing 3A.
    Last edited by key65man; 03-05-2010 at 04:10 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by key65man View Post
    Yu-Na will beat Midori. Midori's GoE for jump will not be higher than that of Yu-Na's as Yu-Na has the height and distance. Yu-Na's entrance would be, if not better, as good as Midori's (I will absolutely vote for Yu-Na's). Midori, however, will get more points for 3A related jumps. Nevertheless, Yu-Na will easily top Midori on other elements such as spin, spiral, steps, etc., let alone PCS. Also, I think Yu-Na is faster than Midori, which should be a factor.

    Yu-Na is not as great a jumper as Midori. She is not as dramatic as Witt. Nor is she as graceful as Kwan. But, Yu-Na is pretty much most versatile among the ones I have seen. She is pretty much unbeatable under the current system that emphasizes the whole package.

    I am not sure what happened to her 3A. All I heard was she got injured practicing 3A.
    Maybe. But who's to say that these past skaters wouldn't have worked on these things if they competed under the new system. But one thing I think these past skaters have over the new ones including Yuna is a sense of orginality, and I think it's a drawback of CoP, since every element has to be perfect and balanced.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Maybe. But who's to say that these past skaters wouldn't have worked on these things if they competed under the new system. But one thing I think these past skaters have over the new ones including Yuna is a sense of orginality, and I think it's a drawback of CoP, since every element has to be perfect and balanced.
    One can argue Yu-Na could have done something else with the presence of Midori. Just comparing the two at their greatest height without what-if's. I will just say, if Midori could have improved the other elements, she would have back then and won them all.

  6. #36
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gio View Post
    Kristi too had good jumps.
    Disagree. She had (relatively) consisent jumps. Her Double Axel and Triple Toeloop were good but her Lutz and Flip were tiny and barely made the rotation. If she competed under CoP, she would probably use the exact same jump layout Yu-Na used this season (except with a Triple Loop instead of a Triple Salchow), but her +GOE wouldn't be nearly as high.

  7. #37
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    COP or not COP, there is one thing that don't change in figure skating. It's a sporting discipline which requires bone-breaking hard work, but also demands skaters to reach such a level of technical mastery that they can finally blossom into an otherworldy state of serenity and joy.

    Midori's jumps are amazing feats, but 'not quite high enough' from this standard; what people want to see is that a skater lifts herself so high and beyond so that we experience this strange thing called "beauty," which is not exactly the physical beauty of the skater, nor her lines, nor just musicality. And 'artistry' is too flat a word to describe it and does not include the dimension of pain and hard work which is another face of this skating beauty. Yuna personifies this lift, toward sublimation, for me and I saw Kwan lifting herself that way sometimes too. But, I personally don't feel it with Witt or other skating greats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by verysmuchso View Post
    COP or not COP, there is one thing that don't change in figure skating. It's a sporting discipline which requires bone-breaking hard work, but also demands skaters to reach such a level of technical mastery that they can finally blossom into an otherworldy state of serenity and joy.

    Midori's jumps are amazing feats, but 'not quite high enough' from this standard; what people want to see is that a skater lifts herself so high and beyond so that we experience this strange thing called "beauty," which is not exactly the physical beauty of the skater, nor her lines, nor just musicality. And 'artistry' is too flat a word to describe it and does not include the dimension of pain and hard work which is another face of this skating beauty. Yuna personifies this lift, toward sublimation, for me and I saw Kwan lifting herself that way sometimes too. But, I personally don't feel it with Witt or other skating greats.
    But that's just a subjective view though. One skater appeals to some people, but another skater will appeal to other people. For me, Yuna doesn't do it, though I admire her qualities, but I feel it with Kwan, Janet Lynn, and Mao sometimes. But that's just my personal opinion.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    But that's just a subjective view though. One skater appeals to some people, but another skater will appeal to other people. For me, Yuna doesn't do it, though I admire her qualities, but I feel it with Kwan, Janet Lynn, and Mao sometimes. But that's just my personal opinion.
    I think Mao could become an amazing, amazing skater, but, for now, what seems to stop her is that when she is on the ice, she is too much "here and now," too much in her own situation and reality. Like, I can almost read her mind, her worries, anxieties, and I can even see her planning for the next move on the ice. Whereas some few lucky skaters seem to be able to triumph over it, or make it seem so, and my poor jaw drops.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by verysmuchso View Post
    COP or not COP, there is one thing that don't change in figure skating. It's a sporting discipline which requires bone-breaking hard work, but also demands skaters to reach such a level of technical mastery that they can finally blossom into an otherworldy state of serenity and joy.

    Midori's jumps are amazing feats, but 'not quite high enough' from this standard; what people want to see is that a skater lifts herself so high and beyond so that we experience this strange thing called "beauty," which is not exactly the physical beauty of the skater, nor her lines, nor just musicality. And 'artistry' is too flat a word to describe it and does not include the dimension of pain and hard work which is another face of this skating beauty. Yuna personifies this lift, toward sublimation, for me and I saw Kwan lifting herself that way sometimes too. But, I personally don't feel it with Witt or other skating greats.
    Thank you for your insights! I agree with you. It is really something when I see a skater self-actualize. YuNa is the only skater I have followed for long enough to see this process as it happens...I agree that she transcended something that Midori didn't (from my eyes.) Having said that, Midori at her absolute best would likely beat everyone + a couple of guys.

    I think Mao will reach that level, too. Right now, she seems to be in a transition phase but I hope she finds herself, because she will probably be magnificent.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by verysmuchso View Post
    COP or not COP, there is one thing that don't change in figure skating. It's a sporting discipline which requires bone-breaking hard work, but also demands skaters to reach such a level of technical mastery that they can finally blossom into an otherworldy state of serenity and joy.

    Midori's jumps are amazing feats, but 'not quite high enough' from this standard; what people want to see is that a skater lifts herself so high and beyond so that we experience this strange thing called "beauty," which is not exactly the physical beauty of the skater, nor her lines, nor just musicality. And 'artistry' is too flat a word to describe it and does not include the dimension of pain and hard work which is another face of this skating beauty. Yuna personifies this lift, toward sublimation, for me and I saw Kwan lifting herself that way sometimes too. But, I personally don't feel it with Witt or other skating greats.
    Thank you. I totally agree with every word.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by verysmuchso View Post
    COP or not COP, there is one thing that don't change in figure skating. It's a sporting discipline which requires bone-breaking hard work, but also demands skaters to reach such a level of technical mastery that they can finally blossom into an otherworldy state of serenity and joy.

    Midori's jumps are amazing feats, but 'not quite high enough' from this standard; what people want to see is that a skater lifts herself so high and beyond so that we experience this strange thing called "beauty," which is not exactly the physical beauty of the skater, nor her lines, nor just musicality. And 'artistry' is too flat a word to describe it and does not include the dimension of pain and hard work which is another face of this skating beauty. Yuna personifies this lift, toward sublimation, for me and I saw Kwan lifting herself that way sometimes too. But, I personally don't feel it with Witt or other skating greats.
    That's also what I look for from skating, which is why even when Tara won in 1998, Michelle was the winner to me. i've never looked back at any of Tara's programs on YouTube. But I regularly watch Michelle's skates, such as the Song of the Black Swan. Michelle is one of those skaters who manage to take me to another place. I also get that feeling from Janet Lynn, Yuka Sato, John Curry, Kurt Browning, and some others. Mao has that potential for me, and I hope she gets that buoyancy back. YuNa has it sometimes, and of course I admire her tremendously and feel lucky that I get to see her. Like you, I never got that feeling from Witt, impressive though her career is. The fact is, such a skater is far rarer than an Olympic gold medalist. You get those every four years. The rare birds come along at some other pace, and their effects can't always be measured by the Code of Points.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by verysmuchso View Post
    COP or not COP, there is one thing that don't change in figure skating. It's a sporting discipline which requires bone-breaking hard work, but also demands skaters to reach such a level of technical mastery that they can finally blossom into an otherworldy state of serenity and joy.

    Midori's jumps are amazing feats, but 'not quite high enough' from this standard; what people want to see is that a skater lifts herself so high and beyond so that we experience this strange thing called "beauty," which is not exactly the physical beauty of the skater, nor her lines, nor just musicality. And 'artistry' is too flat a word to describe it and does not include the dimension of pain and hard work which is another face of this skating beauty. Yuna personifies this lift, toward sublimation, for me and I saw Kwan lifting herself that way sometimes too. But, I personally don't feel it with Witt or other skating greats.
    Completely subjective view. To me, the power and beauty of Ito's athleticism pretty much trumps anyone who came before or after her. She is possibly the most athletic female figure skater of all time. Even though she was not a "pretty ice princess" her skating was gorgeous in its own right. She will go down as a legend, and I doubt anyone could argue otherwise.

    Yuna has been the best ladies skater of the past quad and is a gorgeous skater. Her olympic lp left me cold, but I think that had to do with the incoherence of her music cut and choreography. The lark ascending and miss saigon were a bit better in this regard. To me, midori trumps yuna- although yuna has the balletic lines and sensitivity to the music, midori's choreography was already, in 1988, packed with transitions and difficult variations. Also, as an "artist", yuna is not even on the same level as lu chen, michelle kwan or even sasha. Yuna is one of my favorites now, but I have to defend Ito who is nothing less than legendary.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kappa_1 View Post
    Completely subjective view. To me, the power and beauty of Ito's athleticism pretty much trumps anyone who came before or after her. She is possibly the most athletic female figure skater of all time. Even though she was not a "pretty ice princess" her skating was gorgeous in its own right. She will go down as a legend, and I doubt anyone could argue otherwise.

    Yuna has been the best ladies skater of the past quad and is a gorgeous skater. Her olympic lp left me cold, but I think that had to do with the incoherence of her music cut and choreography. The lark ascending and miss saigon were a bit better in this regard. To me, midori trumps yuna- although yuna has the balletic lines and sensitivity to the music, midori's choreography was already, in 1988, packed with transitions and difficult variations. Also, as an "artist", yuna is not even on the same level as lu chen, michelle kwan or even sasha. Yuna is one of my favorites now, but I have to defend Ito who is nothing less than legendary.
    Agree! Both Midori and Mao (pre-2009 season) showed a sense of power and beauty in their athleticism. They weren't the most expressive or "artistic" in the conventional sense, but there was a sense of joy in their skating. Hopefully, Mao can get back that sense of joy in her skating again. Midori always had that and so it was always enjoyable to watch her skate. In my opinion, no one can trump Michelle Kwan in the artistry department. She was definitely the Queen in that aspect.

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    I apologize to Midori! I didn't mean to imply that she was somehow a lesser skater by not mentioning her among my favorites. In fact, as both miki88 and kappa_1 point out, she was a phenomenon and tremendous to watch. What's more, she plainly radiated joy as she skated. I'd add that indeed she was a musical skater, though because she didn't have long, balletic lines, that aspect of her skating might be overlooked. Her musical choices were very beautiful, and she expressed the music very well both emotionally and in terms of how she let the melodic line and the tempo carry her movements. Moreover, there's something about her personality--modest and eager at the same time--that always charmed me. I saw her (on TV) compete in one of the Landover pro events, and I really watched her triple axel for the first time. I was astounded: it was as though she were climbing up the air, with no thought to gravity.

    I never feel able to compare one skater to another in terms of who could have beaten whom. The judges do what they please, one skater has the night of her/his life while another falters, and sometimes two great skaters have the misfortune to peak at the same moment--and there's room at the top for just one. But I love these threads because they bring out wonderful insights from all of us, and they remind us how long a line of fabulous skaters we have been privileged to see. And now with YouTube, even those of us who are new to skating can have the chance to see what the fuss is all about with the likes of Chen Lu, Midori Ito, and even Janet Lynn. Aren't we lucky!

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