Could a perfect Midori have beaten a perfect Yuna?

verysmuchso said:

COP or not COP, there is one thing that don't change in figure skating. It's a sporting discipline which requires bone-breaking hard work, but also demands skaters to reach such a level of technical mastery that they can finally blossom into an otherworldy state of serenity and joy.

Midori's jumps are amazing feats, but 'not quite high enough' from this standard; what people want to see is that a skater lifts herself so high and beyond so that we experience this strange thing called "beauty," which is not exactly the physical beauty of the skater, nor her lines, nor just musicality. And 'artistry' is too flat a word to describe it and does not include the dimension of pain and hard work which is another face of this skating beauty. Yuna personifies this lift, toward sublimation, for me and I saw Kwan lifting herself that way sometimes too. But, I personally don't feel it with Witt or other skating greats.

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Thank you. I totally agree with every word.

verysmuchso said:

COP or not COP, there is one thing that don't change in figure skating. It's a sporting discipline which requires bone-breaking hard work, but also demands skaters to reach such a level of technical mastery that they can finally blossom into an otherworldy state of serenity and joy.

Midori's jumps are amazing feats, but 'not quite high enough' from this standard; what people want to see is that a skater lifts herself so high and beyond so that we experience this strange thing called "beauty," which is not exactly the physical beauty of the skater, nor her lines, nor just musicality. And 'artistry' is too flat a word to describe it and does not include the dimension of pain and hard work which is another face of this skating beauty. Yuna personifies this lift, toward sublimation, for me and I saw Kwan lifting herself that way sometimes too. But, I personally don't feel it with Witt or other skating greats.

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That's also what I look for from skating, which is why even when Tara won in 1998, Michelle was the winner to me. i've never looked back at any of Tara's programs on YouTube. But I regularly watch Michelle's skates, such as the Song of the Black Swan. Michelle is one of those skaters who manage to take me to another place. I also get that feeling from Janet Lynn, Yuka Sato, John Curry, Kurt Browning, and some others. Mao has that potential for me, and I hope she gets that buoyancy back. YuNa has it sometimes, and of course I admire her tremendously and feel lucky that I get to see her. Like you, I never got that feeling from Witt, impressive though her career is. The fact is, such a skater is far rarer than an Olympic gold medalist. You get those every four years. The rare birds come along at some other pace, and their effects can't always be measured by the Code of Points.

verysmuchso said:

COP or not COP, there is one thing that don't change in figure skating. It's a sporting discipline which requires bone-breaking hard work, but also demands skaters to reach such a level of technical mastery that they can finally blossom into an otherworldy state of serenity and joy.

Midori's jumps are amazing feats, but 'not quite high enough' from this standard; what people want to see is that a skater lifts herself so high and beyond so that we experience this strange thing called "beauty," which is not exactly the physical beauty of the skater, nor her lines, nor just musicality. And 'artistry' is too flat a word to describe it and does not include the dimension of pain and hard work which is another face of this skating beauty. Yuna personifies this lift, toward sublimation, for me and I saw Kwan lifting herself that way sometimes too. But, I personally don't feel it with Witt or other skating greats.

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Completely subjective view. To me, the power and beauty of Ito's athleticism pretty much trumps anyone who came before or after her. She is possibly the most athletic female figure skater of all time. Even though she was not a "pretty ice princess" her skating was gorgeous in its own right. She will go down as a legend, and I doubt anyone could argue otherwise.

Yuna has been the best ladies skater of the past quad and is a gorgeous skater. Her olympic lp left me cold, but I think that had to do with the incoherence of her music cut and choreography. The lark ascending and miss saigon were a bit better in this regard. To me, midori trumps yuna- although yuna has the balletic lines and sensitivity to the music, midori's choreography was already, in 1988, packed with transitions and difficult variations. Also, as an "artist", yuna is not even on the same level as lu chen, michelle kwan or even sasha. Yuna is one of my favorites now, but I have to defend Ito who is nothing less than legendary.

kappa_1 said:

Completely subjective view. To me, the power and beauty of Ito's athleticism pretty much trumps anyone who came before or after her. She is possibly the most athletic female figure skater of all time. Even though she was not a "pretty ice princess" her skating was gorgeous in its own right. She will go down as a legend, and I doubt anyone could argue otherwise.

Yuna has been the best ladies skater of the past quad and is a gorgeous skater. Her olympic lp left me cold, but I think that had to do with the incoherence of her music cut and choreography. The lark ascending and miss saigon were a bit better in this regard. To me, midori trumps yuna- although yuna has the balletic lines and sensitivity to the music, midori's choreography was already, in 1988, packed with transitions and difficult variations. Also, as an "artist", yuna is not even on the same level as lu chen, michelle kwan or even sasha. Yuna is one of my favorites now, but I have to defend Ito who is nothing less than legendary.

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Agree! Both Midori and Mao (pre-2009 season) showed a sense of power and beauty in their athleticism. They weren't the most expressive or "artistic" in the conventional sense, but there was a sense of joy in their skating. Hopefully, Mao can get back that sense of joy in her skating again. Midori always had that and so it was always enjoyable to watch her skate. In my opinion, no one can trump Michelle Kwan in the artistry department. She was definitely the Queen in that aspect.

I apologize to Midori! I didn't mean to imply that she was somehow a lesser skater by not mentioning her among my favorites. In fact, as both miki88 and kappa_1 point out, she was a phenomenon and tremendous to watch. What's more, she plainly radiated joy as she skated. I'd add that indeed she was a musical skater, though because she didn't have long, balletic lines, that aspect of her skating might be overlooked. Her musical choices were very beautiful, and she expressed the music very well both emotionally and in terms of how she let the melodic line and the tempo carry her movements. Moreover, there's something about her personality--modest and eager at the same time--that always charmed me. I saw her (on TV) compete in one of the Landover pro events, and I really watched her triple axel for the first time. I was astounded: it was as though she were climbing up the air, with no thought to gravity.

I never feel able to compare one skater to another in terms of who could have beaten whom. The judges do what they please, one skater has the night of her/his life while another falters, and sometimes two great skaters have the misfortune to peak at the same moment--and there's room at the top for just one. But I love these threads because they bring out wonderful insights from all of us, and they remind us how long a line of fabulous skaters we have been privileged to see. And now with YouTube, even those of us who are new to skating can have the chance to see what the fuss is all about with the likes of Chen Lu, Midori Ito, and even Janet Lynn. Aren't we lucky!

kappa_1 said:

Completely subjective view. To me, the power and beauty of Ito's athleticism pretty much trumps anyone who came before or after her. She is possibly the most athletic female figure skater of all time. Even though she was not a "pretty ice princess" her skating was gorgeous in its own right. She will go down as a legend, and I doubt anyone could argue otherwise.

Yuna has been the best ladies skater of the past quad and is a gorgeous skater. Her olympic lp left me cold, but I think that had to do with the incoherence of her music cut and choreography. The lark ascending and miss saigon were a bit better in this regard. To me, midori trumps yuna- although yuna has the balletic lines and sensitivity to the music, midori's choreography was already, in 1988, packed with transitions and difficult variations. Also, as an "artist", yuna is not even on the same level as lu chen, michelle kwan or even sasha. Yuna is one of my favorites now, but I have to defend Ito who is nothing less than legendary.

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Well, subjectivity is a vast subject, and I won’t take the easy road of calling you guilty of subjectivity in your turn, in and for what you just said. Instead, I would like to say figure skating is ‘subjective,’ but in a very special way.

A figure skating event takes place in front of an audience, and a skater and her/his program are supposed to engage the audience and get a specific response from them. When the audience is enthralled, now that’s a subjective response, but at a collective scale. People say the scores judges give out are influenced by the audience reaction; is it an undue influence? I don’t think so. The ISU rules, for instance, require the judges not to use slow-motion replays in certain circumstances. Why? It’s because they want the judges to judge using humanly-available, intuitive means, unassisted by technology, just like the audience. What this says, in turn, is that figure skating is to an extent about that ‘communal experience’ afforded at a specific venue, at a specific time, by a specific audience present, more than, say, how a jump 'really' was, which can be viewed and analyzed to quite inhuman details thank to today’s technology.

So, now let’s take the example of Yuna’s free program in Vancouver, since it’s the latest Olympic gold performance, every broadcaster, or nearly every one of them, around the world declared that she had won the gold, before even the score came out, before any slow motion replays were streamed. How do we know this? Subjective though we all are, in those rare moments, we all experience the same beauty. When a figure skater wins the Olympic gold ‘fair and square,’ she won more than an objective basis or on metered and measurable aspects, but she won by blurring boundaries between what’s objective and what’s subjective.