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Thread: ISU, Get it Together and Verify Your Own Rules

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsrossano View Post
    A few tidbits on this now on my site. ISU is currently stonewalling. Rules for entries at ISU Championships and Grand Prixs are different. Don't muddy the waters by getting into Grand Prix rules. Entries at Championships are covered by Rule 378. Ultimate responsibility for entries being handled correctly rests with Peter Krick.
    Yeah, let's not get off the topic because as I mentioned, the way the Grand Prix entrants are in no way similar to the system used for ISU Championships.

    Hopefully Stevenson will get an answer out of somebody!

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    Whatever happens with this -- and I think enough people are asking questions so that the ISU may eventually issue a response -- any protests concerning a competitor's participation in a competition must be filed before the event starts. (Right, George?) So it would make little sense for another federation (i.e., Estonia) to protest now. Hopefully Peter Krick addresses this soon.

    I say -- let's send three U.S. ladies to Torino just for the heck of it and see what happens.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nylynnr View Post
    So it would make little sense for another federation (i.e., Estonia) to protest now.
    When it comes to raising hell, never too late, never too soon.

    Estonia should demand that the ISU rent the rink for another day after the competition is over and allow the Estonian kids to skate their long program in front of the judges.

    Edited to add: By the way, giving credit where it is due, this question was first raised (as far as I know) by Watchvancouver (aka Fiercemao, etc., etc., etc.) on this thread several days ago.

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...010-Jr.-Worlds

    This is all really quite strange. Yes, mistakes happen. But the Chinese Skating Federation can count to 13. They have known for a year that they had qualified two teams. (?)
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-11-2010 at 06:35 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nylynnr View Post
    Whatever happens with this -- and I think enough people are asking questions so that the ISU may eventually issue a response -- any protests concerning a competitor's participation in a competition must be filed before the event starts. (Right, George?) So it would make little sense for another federation (i.e., Estonia) to protest now. Hopefully Peter Krick addresses this soon.

    I say -- let's send three U.S. ladies to Torino just for the heck of it and see what happens.
    For results, protests must go in within a certain (I don't remember) time limit after the event is over. Don't know how the rules cover protests over entrants who should not have been entered in the first palce. In the ancient ancient past (like 100 years ago!) the ISU would just nullify the offending results. From what I hear, no country wants to be "bad cop" and raise the issue with the ISU, though the Estonians would be the logical choice since their team got unfairly eliminated. As afar as I can see it does not affect the number of entries anybody gets next year, so only people who feel that rules should be scrupulously followed are taking note.

    Apparently at the ISU rules are like the Pirates' Code in Pirates of the Caribbean -- they are more like suggestions.

    Edit: Rule 123 says protests against participation of a competitor must be filed before the start of the competition. Whatever start means. Before the draw? Before the first competitor skates? The rules don't says, but it is obviously too late as the competition is now over.
    Last edited by gsrossano; 03-11-2010 at 07:28 PM.

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    Knowing the Chinese like I do, it would not surprise me if money passed hands in a back room--speculation. Money or no, unless ISU can point to a defined loophole or exception that the Chinese legitimately took advantage of, the Federation should be punished by the ISU nullifying all 3 Chinese pairs' results, and the standings and medals for the pairs events redistributed. And a one-year suspension from international competition. Yes, this sounds harsh and punishes the skaters, but this is the only kind of message the Chinese federation (and govt) will understand. Ignoring "the rules" (age rules) worked for them in more than one Olympics for gymnastics, so why not bend them for figure skating too? If allowed, they WILL take unfair advantage of the rest of the world if it benefits them.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler View Post
    The Vise/Trent situation was at the 2007/2008 Grand Prix Bompard, so already over two full seasons ago. The option for the top six placed pairs in the World to do a third event was clearly stated in the ISU rules. THIS situation is not.

    If anyone did a third event then it was already stated in the beginning of the Grand Prix series as to which event would not count for points. Remember the 2001 NHK Trophy (I know it was a long time ago too, but just an example) when Slutskaya and Butyrskaya both withdrew in the week before the event? Had they competed and assumingly finished 1-2, then Angela Nikodinov, who was also in the event and had it chosen as her non-scoring event, she would have made the Final. Without the Russians there, Tataiana Malinina won the event and qualified in front of Nikodinov to the Grand Prix Final. It happens. You can also look at that as Nikodinov could have won the event herself instead of finishing the 4th place she ended up, and then she would have protected her own spot.
    OK with the nonscoring entrants. You confirm that is the Rule, when there is a vacancy in a GP entrants, a top 6 skater or team can by Rule apply to fill it as a nonscoring event and knock out a would be bronze medalist so that the new entrant can have an extra session to see if their scores improved?

    This could happen again as Pairs is not the most populated sport. I don't think this should be swept under the rug, as the topic of this thread is questioning the Isu to verify its own rules. What is the Rule on Filling the Gaps? Does it exist in writing?

    The question to be put to the ISU is why fill the gaps with top 6 skaters or teams. Nikidinov at least was not put against a top 6 skater.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Knowing the Chinese like I do, it would not surprise me if money passed hands in a back room--speculation. Money or no, unless ISU can point to a defined loophole or exception that the Chinese legitimately took advantage of, the Federation should be punished by the ISU nullifying all 3 Chinese pairs' results, and the standings and medals for the pairs events redistributed. And a one-year suspension from international competition. Yes, this sounds harsh and punishes the skaters, but this is the only kind of message the Chinese federation (and govt) will understand. .
    More racist rants. ISU screwed up and China should get punished? It's interesting how such an incident can expose the deep racist hatred embedded in the typical 'whites' just on one figure skating board alone. Maybe it's really true that most white female liberals are hidden racists. It won't surprise me that the majority of figure skating fans are white female liberals.

    I'm counting to at least FIVE who have showed their racist bones.
    Last edited by watchvancouver; 03-11-2010 at 07:39 PM.

  8. #23
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    The Chinese question will be ignored other than it is a top 6 team with special privileges. How much time is permitted for protests, and are all the teams advised before the competition?

    and, btw, the Grande Prix questions should not be ignored. The question of the thread is about ISU rules.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler View Post
    Yeah, let's not get off the topic because as I mentioned, the way the Grand Prix entrants are in no way similar to the system used for ISU Championships.

    Hopefully Stevenson will get an answer out of somebody!
    Your topic, your topic, reads ISU Get it together and verify your own rules. I have not read that you changed your own topic to make discussion only on ISU championships excluding Grand Prix. If the GPs are not ISU championships, what are they?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    OK with the nonscoring entrants. You confirm that is the Rule, when there is a vacancy in a GP entrants, a top 6 skater or team can by Rule apply to fill it as a nonscoring event and knock out a would be bronze medalist so that the new entrant can have an extra session to see if their scores improved?
    This rule has already been changed, Joe. The year that you are referencing (Pang and Tong) was the last year that top 6 teams were allowed to participate in a third event. Now teams can only do two events, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Knowing the Chinese like I do, it would not surprise me if money passed hands in a back room--speculation. Money or no, unless ISU can point to a defined loophole or exception that the Chinese legitimately took advantage of, the Federation should be punished by the ISU nullifying all 3 Chinese pairs' results, and the standings and medals for the pairs events redistributed. And a one-year suspension from international competition.
    Wait a minute. The Chinese bribed ISU officials, so the ISU officials who took the money should punish the Chinese? (While keeping the money, of course -- I like it! It sounds like the Detroit City Council. )
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-11-2010 at 07:59 PM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Your topic, your topic, reads ISU Get it together and verify your own rules. I have not read that you changed your own topic to make discussion only on ISU championships excluding Grand Prix. If the GPs are not ISU championships, what are they?
    Joe, you need to read the ISU rules. They are available for anyone to read if you go on isu.org. ISU Championships are the Four Continents, Europeans, World Juniors, and World Championships. Sorry that I didn't clarify that completely. And-- what Mathman said. The rules you keep referring to were done away with a few years ago.

  12. #27
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Peter Krick is the same guy who made an innocent draw for the Olympic CD look like it might be crooked.. The ISU should consider replacing the idiot.

    Apparently counting to 13 is beyond him-probably because he would have to take off his shoes to keep track of the count.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Peter Krick is the same guy who made an innocent draw for the Olympic CD look like it might be crooked..
    You mean when the CD drawn was the very dance that favored Domnina and Shabalin (who couldn't have done the Golden Waltz on his bad leg) ?

    But Frick did not conduct the draw alone. He was assisted by a Russian judge and an official of the Russian Olympic team, plus a small child who actually reached in and drew out the marker.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Wait a minute. The Chinese bribed ISU officials, so the ISU officials who took the money should punish the Chinese? (While keeping the money, of course -- I like it! It sounds like the Detroit City Council. )
    Did not mean to imply limiting the consequences to the Chinese. Whoever screwed up (whether by carelessness, malfeasance or some other reason) on the ISU side should of course not be exempt from punishment and banishment. Now, if the ISU would just come out and point to the appropriate regulation which permitted the extra pair in this situation, then everything is cleared up and no harm, no foul.

    I will ignore watchvancouver's comment, who is either a Chinese apologist, or who doesn't have to deal daily with the realities of scruple-less people.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Knowing the Chinese like I do, it would not surprise me if money passed hands in a back room--speculation. Money or no, unless ISU can point to a defined loophole or exception that the Chinese legitimately took advantage of, the Federation should be punished by the ISU nullifying all 3 Chinese pairs' results, and the standings and medals for the pairs events redistributed. And a one-year suspension from international competition. Yes, this sounds harsh and punishes the skaters, but this is the only kind of message the Chinese federation (and govt) will understand. Ignoring "the rules" (age rules) worked for them in more than one Olympics for gymnastics, so why not bend them for figure skating too? If allowed, they WILL take unfair advantage of the rest of the world if it benefits them.
    So in effect you are advocating punishing the skaters, for something that the federation is responsible for? That's ridiculous. Even if corruption is at work here, just as with judging, the skaters are the innocent victims in these things, why on earth would you think stripping medals, scrubbing them from the record books and banning them for a year would be a suitable punishment for the federation?



    Ant
    Last edited by antmanb; 03-12-2010 at 05:28 AM.

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