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Thread: ISU, Get it Together and Verify Your Own Rules

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsrossano View Post
    A few more crmubs about this on my site.

    In nosing around on this I discovered an unrelated but intersting (to me at least) item. Dick Pound who criticized IJS before the Olympics and was then later basically caled an idiot by Ted Barton in a subsequent interview, signed up to be a medal presenter for the Dance event. OC nixed it because of the comments Pound made about IJS. If you cross OC there is always payback, even if you are a senior IOC member.
    What's the link to your site? please.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennylovskt View Post
    Yes, she knows more about China than average western people. But there is one thing everyone should keep in mind when you read bigsisjiejie's facinating stories about China and Chinese. That is: she is a hater. She hates China and Chinese. Her hatred flows out from most of her posts. Her posts were full of bigotries and prejudice, not necessarily the truth. But they do carry some "wow" factors to the western world.
    Her amusing rants just demonstrate what a sorry loser she really is. This poor woman are still aghast at the fact those 'yellow' people with flat noses are doing better than her, a white who is in her own word, has superior western morality. I guess what really angers her the most is that those 'yellow' people are invading her last 'white' comfort zone, figure skating.

    I feel bad for these bigots. They are fighting a losing war. The slavery is not coming back. America finally has a first black president. Even the figure skating world is full of Koreans, Chinese and Japanese.
    Last edited by watchvancouver; 03-14-2010 at 12:13 AM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennylovskt View Post
    Yes, she knows more about China than average western people. But there is one thing everyone should keep in mind when you read bigsisjiejie's facinating stories about China and Chinese. That is: she is a hater. She hates China and Chinese. Her hatred flows out from most of her posts. Her posts were full of bigotries and prejudice, not necessarily the truth. But they do carry some "wow" factors to the western world.
    Maybe you have read more of bigsisjiejie's posts than I have but I don't find the posts full of hatred for the Chinese people. Disliking aspects of the Chinese government and their official state run sporting organizations feels much different to me than hating Chinese people.

    But it seems you have always defended the Soviet system and sporting culture which seemed so similar to the current Chinese sporting culture - the win at all costs philosophy which was then used by the government to glorify the state and to try and cover up shortcomings such as freedom and dignity for many of it's citizens.

    Condeming the practices and methods used by governmemnt run sporting federations doesn't feel like bigotry against the Chinese people to me. It is something altogether different.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Maybe you have read more of bigsisjiejie's posts than I have but I don't find the posts full of hatred for the Chinese people. Disliking aspects of the Chinese government and their official state run sporting organizations feels much different to me than hating Chinese people.

    But it seems you have always defended the Soviet system and sporting culture which seemed so similar to the current Chinese sporting culture - the win at all costs philosophy which was then used by the government to glorify the state and to try and cover up shortcomings such as freedom and dignity for many of it's citizens.

    Condeming the practices and methods used by governmemnt run sporting federations doesn't feel like bigotry against the Chinese people to me. It is something altogether different.
    Why do I have to deal with you first janetfan?:sheesh:

    I don't have time, but when I have, I can list all parts that demonstrated her hatred for Chinese people and China as a whole, not just the Chinese govenment. I do not defend, and have never defended Chinese government. But I oppose those baseless accusations and pure speculations. Shocking, because you don't know and never heard. Shocking, so her posts could get through. But she is hardly an "expert". You have to take her prejudiced views (I haven't used the word "racist" because I am saying it in an objective way. I never accuse anyone racist unless I truly believe that my words are accurate.) with considerable big question marks.
    Last edited by jennylovskt; 03-14-2010 at 10:08 AM.

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    Janetfan, you pretty much nailed it. I don't have hatred for the Chinese people as a whole. There are some very disquieting aspects to this culture, however, which have in some respects gotten worse. BTW, my relationship with China is not new, but started nearly 25 years ago, probably longer than some posters on this board have been alive. And that included a stint living in China in the mid-1980's. Let's say I've got a bit of perspective. If I hated the Chinese or had fear of the Yellow Man or whatever nonsense somebody said above, I'd be unlikely to have that lengthy a history. However, I will not be an apologist when my eyes, ears, and other senses tell me otherwise.

    I offer the following interesting news clip (from a China blog) related to sports and specifically to skating (uh, speed skating that is). Scroll down to the item "Lesson Learned, Zhou Yang Thanks the Country First" and it will illustrate a point that I made in a post above about the system and the mentality. Note that if you are inside China, this website is blocked and you will need to access through proxy or VPN.
    http://www.danwei.org/

    At the bottom of that article are several links one of which is China Hush (English language). That article and the comments that follow are of further interest. Particularly the ones from ordinary Chinese, which might not be what you'd expect.
    Last edited by bigsisjiejie; 03-14-2010 at 10:06 AM. Reason: added last paragraph

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    This whole fiasco reminds me of the episode on The Simpsons, when Lisa on purpose answered wrong a test and her teacher still gave her an A+ , because she's Lisa, she always gets great grades and didnt even bother to evaluate the answers. The teacher was just totally clueless as the ISU was this time : "Oh it's China, of course they must have earned three pair teams" LOL


    Oh and the big losers of this were unfortunately the 17th pair team after the SP
    Last edited by SamuraiKike; 03-14-2010 at 12:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by watchvancouver View Post
    What's the link to your site? please.
    http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/curre...se%20Pairs.htm

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    Ok, janetfan, first, I have to say that I didn't want to do this. But you questioned it. So here I am, to fulfill my promise to you in my last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Knowing the Chinese like I do, it would not surprise me if money passed hands in a back room--speculation. Money or no, unless ISU can point to a defined loophole or exception that the Chinese legitimately took advantage of, the Federation should be punished by the ISU nullifying all 3 Chinese pairs' results, and the standings and medals for the pairs events redistributed. And a one-year suspension from international competition. Yes, this sounds harsh and punishes the skaters, but this is the only kind of message the Chinese federation (and govt) will understand. Ignoring "the rules" (age rules) worked for them in more than one Olympics for gymnastics, so why not bend them for figure skating too? If allowed, they WILL take unfair advantage of the rest of the world if it benefits them.
    Cruelty to Chinese skaters. Pure hatred to Chinese government.

    Chinese skaters deserve as much consideration and protection as any other countries' skaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Did not mean to imply limiting the consequences to the Chinese. Whoever screwed up (whether by carelessness, malfeasance or some other reason) on the ISU side should of course not be exempt from punishment and banishment. Now, if the ISU would just come out and point to the appropriate regulation which permitted the extra pair in this situation, then everything is cleared up and no harm, no foul.

    I will ignore watchvancouver's comment, who is either a Chinese apologist, or who doesn't have to deal daily with the realities of scruple-less people.
    Hatred to the environment she's in and the Chinese people to whom she is sick of but has to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    You're confused or think my original comment is ridiculous, because you are coming at this from a Western point of view, in which the individual is more important than the organization. I'll try to explain this from a completely different angle:

    1) In China, skaters on the national elite team (also applies to many other sports) are an arm and tool of the State. This is not a secret here. With the exception of high achievers on the international stage over a long period of time (such as a Shen/Zhao and that only in the last several years), Chinese skaters are means to national glory rather than individual glory. They are "owned" and they do know this--their training/housing/eating/all aspects of life are strictly controlled, in return for complete financial support from the Federation, and for some skaters...also their families...for as long as they continue their usefulness/achievement in the sports world. The closest similar model would be the former East German or Soviet sports training systems.
    This part is ok. I agree that Chinese system is somewhat similar to Soviet system.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    2) It is a sad fact that many things in China don't change except with some huge "loss of face" that can't be hidden from the public, and some resulting outrage. Stripping medals and titles, and/or banishment for a year, would definitely cause more national embarrassment in China than in most other countries. It would also produce sympathy for the skaters themselves, and a search for the head of the rotten fish, and possibly some positive change at the Federation level. Which is ultimately what one is after for the long term. I agree that the skaters as individuals would be "collateral damage" in the short term. This is a very tough and seemingly heartless stance to take, but it is likely the most effective.
    Don't know what she's talking about? What many things don't change? The human rights? What has changed? The "loss of face" opens to public? Even though the fighting for the human rights in China is still having a long way to go, it has changed significantly for the better. Thanks to the open doors policies started from the Chinese leader Den Xiao Ping about 25-30 years ago. Care about the loss of face? Chinese always do. It is not a government thing. It's the culture. The Chinese people always care. That is why the Chinese people are willing to stand by their government and help their government to achieve a lot of things which require a great deal of coorperation and sacrifice from the ordinary people not just the government. The latest example was Beijing Olympics. It's hard to imagine that a lonely, hated government could lead tens of thousands of unwilling people to make such a miracle.

    The second bolded part in this quote has again shown her cruelty and hatred.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    3) The concept of "right" and "wrong" in the Western sense is not widely present, as the cultural underpinnings of society are completely different. The best way I can describe it (oversimplifying for brevity) is:
    "right" = something that produces the result you wanted, and "wrong" is the opposite. Grand principles of morality don't exist so are irrelevant. So entering three pairs if you aren't entitled to it, but you get away with it, is Right. But if you get caught out and shamed, and other material consequences follow, is Wrong.

    The ISU side of the equation is a related but separate matter. Again, if the ISU would only come out with which rule, regulation, communication, etc. authorized the legitimate inclusion of a third Chinese pair, then this would go away.
    I find the bolded part in this section totally twisted the reality and it is offensive. Again it has shown her prejudiced view on Chinese culture, Chinese people, and China as a whole. As if Chinese are barbarian, unethical, shameless, selfish, ... you name it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    ^^ Remember that much of ancient and traditional Chinese philosophy, including about responsibilities, obligations, honor, and behavior towards others, has in the PRC gone mostly out the window in the last several decades, at least towards strangers and towards the public/society at large. And there's somewhat of a vacuum now as far as replacement philosophies go. So the academic stuff is nice but is just that...and not much apparent in the current reality. Mostly as individuals, groups, organizations, governmental entities, etc., the attitude is either overt or stealthily pushing at all costs, to get what you want. The ends is what matters rather than the means.
    This is vicious slander to China and to Chinese people.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    That's why it is not surprising to me (or to most Chinese citizens) when they hear of sporting scandals that involve high officials, such as the falsification of age records for Olympic gymnasts, etc. Which involved collusion on the governmental side not just the sports federation. The truth is out about 2000 on that one, and eventually 2008 will come home to roost as well (not sure about 2004). What's surprising (to the Chinese) is that nobody else (Intl sporting bodies, etc.) is willing to put the hammer down with meaningful sanctions and punishments, which is a language the Chinese can absolutely understand. Absence of thi is the same as giving them the green light to continue. Should the ISU have purposely or inadvertently allowed the third pair against their own regulations, I have no doubt Chinese sports-meisters are laughing their heads off--which will embolden them even more, as they see that they are able to bend rules with impunity, to their benefit.
    See the bolded part. How did she talk about Chinese?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Janetfan, you pretty much nailed it. I don't have hatred for the Chinese people as a whole. There are some very disquieting aspects to this culture, however, which have in some respects gotten worse. BTW, my relationship with China is not new, but started nearly 25 years ago, probably longer than some posters on this board have been alive. And that included a stint living in China in the mid-1980's. Let's say I've got a bit of perspective. If I hated the Chinese or had fear of the Yellow Man or whatever nonsense somebody said above, I'd be unlikely to have that lengthy a history. However, I will not be an apologist when my eyes, ears, and other senses tell me otherwise.
    And this culture has gone worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    I offer the following interesting news clip (from a China blog) related to sports and specifically to skating (uh, speed skating that is). Scroll down to the item "Lesson Learned, Zhou Yang Thanks the Country First" and it will illustrate a point that I made in a post above about the system and the mentality. Note that if you are inside China, this website is blocked and you will need to access through proxy or VPN.
    http://www.danwei.org/

    At the bottom of that article are several links one of which is China Hush (English language). That article and the comments that follow are of further interest. Particularly the ones from ordinary Chinese, which might not be what you'd expect.
    I find these two bolded parts might be contradicting each other. First, I don't know if anyone inside of China could use proxy or VPN to get on that website and post? Second, China has 1.2 billion population. I am wondering how well a few posters under that article represent the ordinary Chinese? (If not considering some of these posters might be just like bigsisjiejie herself - a foreigner, not a Chinese.)

    On the other hand, these blogs have shown that China does have freedom of speech. You can find all kinds of weird things on the news papers and magzines. But if you see these weird, extreme things on the papers and conclude that Chinese are all like these, you are totally wrong. Just like in USA, you turn on TV every night and watch the local news. Most of them are robberies, drug, sex, child abuses, and the similar things. You can not conclude that Americans are so bad. News is just news. They have to find something to talk about and write about. Especially, what bigsisjiejie offered Chinese blogs are just tabloid like (except two of them) news papers.

    She just sees what she wants to see and thinks what she wants to think. That is just her opinion about China. It is not the real China and the real Chinese people.

    If you have read her posts talking about Beijing Olympics in another thread before Vancouver Olympics, you'll find similar hatred.
    Last edited by jennylovskt; 03-29-2010 at 06:43 PM. Reason: correct spelling

  9. #54
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    There are some very disquieting aspects to this culture, however, which have in some respects gotten worse. BTW
    I'm sorry but I find this comment unsettling. Every culture in this entire world has its good points and its bad points. Its quite easy, as an outsider looking in, to spot the flaws in someone else's culture. But its a lot harder to spot the flaws in your own culture.

    And I thought your comment about taking away the Chinese pairs gold was unnecessary cruel. This pair was the JGPF champions, and they were absolutely going to Junior worlds. Full Stop. They did absolutely nothing wrong and had no control over who their federation sent to Junior Worlds or didn't. To take away their more than earned gold medal would be cruel. The Chinese federation should lose their 3rd spot for next year Junior Worlds that would be a punishment befitting what they did.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-15-2010 at 12:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    3) The concept of "right" and "wrong" in the Western sense is not widely present, as the cultural underpinnings of society are completely different. The best way I can describe it (oversimplifying for brevity) is:
    "right" = something that produces the result you wanted, and "wrong" is the opposite. Grand principles of morality don't exist so are irrelevant. So entering three pairs if you aren't entitled to it, but you get away with it, is Right. But if you get caught out and shamed, and other material consequences follow, is Wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    What's surprising (to the Chinese) is that nobody else (Intl sporting bodies, etc.) is willing to put the hammer down with meaningful sanctions and punishments, which is a language the Chinese can absolutely understand.
    Oh yes, you're right. How dare those dirty Chinese not accept the white people's western sense of "right" and "wrong".

    Oh gosh, the smart and morally superior white people should pound into those Chinese how to be moral by imposing uber-harsh sanctions, take away all the medals their athletes won and shame them as much as possible to ensure that the Chinese people accept the "Western" concept of "right" and "wrong".
    Last edited by Nadia01; 03-15-2010 at 01:19 AM.

  11. #56
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    OK. This thread is getting a bit out of hand and way off topic.

    It appears from people in the know that the ISU made a mistake - it happens and probably will happen again.

    China took full advantage of the situation regardless of whether they knew the ISU made a mistake or not.

    One pair of jr skaters didn't get to skate their free program. They probably will never get compensated for it by the ISU.

    This is after all, a figure skating discussion board and not a political views board.

    Let's get back on topic and leave the politics for the other boards. Thanks.

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    Those who wish to discuss the international politics and Chinese culture may do so here, in the Politics folder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I'm sorry but I find this comment unsettling. Every culture in this entire world has its good points and its bad points. Its quite easy, as an outsider looking in, to spot the flaws in someone else's culture. But its a lot harder to spot the flaws in your own culture.
    True, and avoiding this whole morass is probably wise, but I dont think that than translates that we ignore flaws in other cultures simply because it's easier to point them out.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    True, and avoiding this whole morass is probably wise, but I dont think that than translates that we ignore flaws in other cultures simply because it's easier to point them out.
    But we have to be careful with this. Because then other cultures may choose to get into us for our flaws. The thing is I agree that China if they want to play in a sport needs to follow the sports rules. But I just found the person's comments about China to be incredibly condescending.

  15. #60
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    Sometimes the ends might justify the means...but in this case, I don't think any skaters should be stripped of medals for mistakes or even possible shady dealings between a Skating Federation and the ISU. Yes, it might hurt both parties, but it hurts the skaters most, and that's just grossly unfair.

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