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Thread: Ladies SP

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Again. There's always exception. But the odds for those exception is oddly SMALL. It's like saying you don't need a college education to become a billionaire. Well, but you have a MUCH better chance of becoming a billionaire with an education.
    Shizuka was lucky because the top 2 faltered. If all were clean, no one would put Shizuka above the other two.
    Lysacek is lucky because the political climate is in his favor. His PCS improved by more than 2 quads over the course of 1 month.
    Glad I'm not the only one who noticed how Evan miraculously went from being Nobunari PCS level to Plushenko and Lambiel PCS level in the blink of an eye!

  2. #62
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    It's a nice credential. It isn't a prerequisite to senior success or to "greatness."
    ITA..

    I actually enjoy the junior grand prix competition better. It gives me a better read of the good up and coming skaters. It shows the skaters who are more consistent throughout a season.

  3. #63
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    Shizuka was lucky because the top 2 faltered. If all were clean, no one would put Shizuka above the other two.
    "The top 2" included Sasha Cohen, whose only appearance at Junior Worlds ended with a 6th-place finish.

    Arakawa finished 8th and 7th in her three appearances. Tara Lipinski was 4th and 5th two of those years.

    Winning the junior title was irrelevant to any of the above.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Again. There's always exception. But the odds for those exception is oddly SMALL. It's like saying you don't need a college education to become a billionaire. Well, but you have a MUCH better chance of becoming a billionaire with an education.
    Shizuka was lucky because the top 2 faltered. If all were clean, no one would put Shizuka above the other two.
    Lysacek is lucky because the political climate is in his favor. His PCS improved by more than 2 quads over the course of 1 month.
    Yu-na Kim is the first Junior World Champion since Kristi Yamaguchi to win the Olympics. Neither Shizuka, Sarah, Tara or Oksana won that title. Of course Sarah Hughes did medal at Junior Worlds. And Oksana never even went there. There are a lot of Junior World champs who had success at the Senor level without an OGM (Mao, Miki, Irina, Michelle) But still there is a lot list of junior world champions who did nothing in this sport and had virtually no success at the Senior level. I mean does anyone remember who beat Tara LIpinski at Junior Worlds? Or what about who beat Sarah Hughes? Heck Mao beat Yu-na the first time they met at Junior worlds. And Irina beat Arakawa there too.

    I think that the Junior World title is helpful, especially when starting out in Seniors, but I don't think its the be and end all.

    Junior worlds is an indicator, but its not the end of the world to lose that title either. A skater can learn from the reasons they lost. Like Tara who changed coaches and fixed their technique, or skaters can improve. I mean while Yu-na was only doing 3toes/3toes her first Junior worlds.

    You can also have skaters who are young and able to get away with terrilble technique when they are babies but can't get away with when they are older. There are also those who had skates of their lives (see several of those who beat Evan) but never did again at the Senior level. Then there are those who won because it wasn't a very strong field, and others who didn't win because it was a super strong field. Sometimes not winning super quickly can be the best thing for a skater because it shows them what they need to do to improve.

    And just winning a medal at Junior worlds can be telling too. Evan has several junior worlds medals, it just a couple of skaters had some skates of their lives at Junior worlds. Rochette medaled at junior worlds, so did Sarah.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-12-2010 at 06:10 PM.

  5. #65
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    Rochette never medaled at Junior Worlds. She was 5th in 2002, and I believe 8th in 2001.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler View Post
    Rochette never medaled at Junior Worlds. She was 5th in 2002, and I believe 8th in 2001.
    Oops.. :lol: But well still I do think Junior Worlds is an indicator but to say you have only a small chance of succeeding without that title well tell it to Shiz, Sarah, Tara, and Oksana :Lol: Maria B and Meissner too.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler View Post
    Rochette never medaled at Junior Worlds. She was 5th in 2002, and I believe 8th in 2001.
    LOL. Maybe that's why she's never dominated the sport until now.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    "The top 2" included Sasha Cohen, whose only appearance at Junior Worlds ended with a 6th-place finish.

    Arakawa finished 8th and 7th in her three appearances. Tara Lipinski was 4th and 5th two of those years.

    Winning the junior title was irrelevant to any of the above.
    you apparently forgot that Tara won the Olympics at 15, Sarah at 16. Had they skated in Junior Worlds, they would have won.
    Same story with Sasha. None of these girls skated in the jr. level when they were age eligible. Hello.

    It's silly to bring out "examples" to discredit someone's post especially when these comparisons are apples to oranges.
    Last edited by FlattFan; 03-12-2010 at 06:50 PM.

  9. #69
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    Yes, they did skate at JW when they were eligible and did not medal.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Yes, they did skate at JW when they were eligible and did not medal.
    Did they skate when they were 15 and 16? Please.
    The current set of girls are doing JW at 15, 16, etc.. which is arguably their best years.
    The system's changed. Currently, all the top skaters have been JW champ.

  11. #71
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    I lost interest in Juniors when I realized it's based on age and not something earned except in those tests. In fact fs a skater is a wunderkind, he/she can and will also skate Seniors - and doesn't that help her esteem?

    However, I can watch it as a mini Seniors.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    you apparently forgot that Tara won the Olympics at 15, Sarah at 16. Had they skated in Junior Worlds, they would have won.
    Same story with Sasha. None of these girls skated in the jr. level when they were age eligible. Hello.

    It's silly to bring out "examples" to discredit someone's post especially when these comparisons are apples to oranges.
    I think your posts on Jr titles have been discredited with facts trumping your opinions.
    No apples or oranges - just information that disproves your claims.

    BTW - is Adam Rippon a two-time Jr World Champion?

    Does that mean he will win in 2014? Should we all run out and bet big money on him?

    Not yet - because his Jr titles will not mean much 4 years from now.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Did they skate when they were 15 and 16? Please.
    The current set of girls are doing JW at 15, 16, etc.. which is arguably their best years.
    The system's changed. Currently, all the top skaters have been JW champ.
    So if what you said holds true, we can expect Caroline, Alena and Rachael to dominate in the next few years and be the ones to watch at the next Olympics because they were Junior World Champions. Whatever.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Did they skate when they were 15 and 16? Please.
    The current set of girls are doing JW at 15, 16, etc.. which is arguably their best years.
    The system's changed. Currently, all the top skaters have been JW champ.
    Kim and Asada only competed in Junior worlds when they were age ineligible, and even then it was clear that they were good enough to beat the best Seniors. Miki was fourth at Senior worlds when she won junior worlds.

    There's a new junior world champion every year. Just because you were good enough to beat the Junior field, doesn't mean you'll beat the Senior field at all, or that you'll ever be good enough to beat the Senior field. There will always be new junior stars, they come up every year. It also helped in Yu-na, Mao and Miki's case that the best Seniors retired (although Kim and Mao would have been competitive, clearly). That doesn't happen all the time ask people like Jenny Kirk and Anne Patrice about that. In their case, they were never good enough to beat the top seniors.

    Rachael beat Mirai at Junior worlds when Mirai was only 14. And it was clear from the short that the judges preferred Mirai. Its just Mirai had jumping issues. You can't assume that Mirai will always have jumping issues, because of one competition when she was only 14.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-12-2010 at 07:49 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsk8fan View Post
    So if what you said holds true, we can expect Caroline, Alena and Rachael to dominate in the next few years and be the ones to watch at the next Olympics because they were Junior World Champions. Whatever.
    Move to ignore list because this person couldn't read or couldn't comprehend what's written. I don't know what's worse.

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