What happened to Shelepen and Gao? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

What happened to Shelepen and Gao?

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Mishin mentioned that he is teaching Liza to do 3A, TAT said that Adelina tries it on practices, but I don't know details

Oh wow but they are working on it. That is so intense! Imagine if they do 3-3 and 3a in their JGP programs next year :love:! Also I read an article saying that Anna is working on a 2a-3lo combination in training, I don't think I've ever seen anyone do a 2a-3lo before but sounds cool :agree:!
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
It's one thing to practice 3A and 2a+3Lo, but it's quite another thing to get those jumps ratified in competition.
 

Lucky Star

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
It's one thing to practice 3A and 2a+3Lo, but it's quite another thing to get those jumps ratified in competition.

And nobody denies it! ;)

Oh wow but they are working on it. That is so intense! Imagine if they do 3-3 and 3a in their JGP programs next year :love:! Also I read an article saying that Anna is working on a 2a-3lo combination in training, I don't think I've ever seen anyone do a 2a-3lo before but sounds cool :agree:!

Yeah, sounds interesting! :thumbsup: 3Lo is easier jump for Anna than 3T, and she really needs 3-3 or 2A-3 next year to compete with Liza, Adelina and Polinas at Nationals so I think it's good for her to try it
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
It's one thing to practice 3A and 2a+3Lo, but it's quite another thing to get those jumps ratified in competition.

I don't think there will be another girl doing 3A in the next few years. Rachael's been practicing 3A, hasn't she? All these talks about girls practicing 3A is just silly. Kristi, Mirai, Rachael all tried to do it and yet none's put one in competition, let along getting it ratified. I don't think we will see one from the Russian girls.
 

key65man

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Mishin mentioned that he is teaching Liza to do 3A, TAT said that Adelina tries it on practices, but I don't know details

I am sure Mishin knows what he is doing. But, it may be a mistake to teach the kids 3A before they truly master the jump mechanics and 3-3. One reason many are so high on Tuktamysheva is that she has speed and uses it to her advantage for jump. This is not something you can teach. She was born with it. Nonetheless, it requires great technique to get max impact out of it. It takes much longer to perfect the technique and gain consistency out of it. Tuktamysheva may not be up to that level technically.

One of the most prevalent problems is that people want an access to higher level jumps faster, which very often comes at the expense of "lower" level jumps. 3A simply is too much of a gamble for girls as they most often do not have the physique and legs to make it when they grow up. Tuktamysheva does not look like a type that may stay very petite as she matures.

3A, when taught incorrectly by just emphasizing the number of revolution/rotation and landing, can hamper basic jump mechanics, as well.

3A is for an exceptional case like Midori who was built for it in terms of physique and leg power. I just don't see it in Tuktamysheva. Haven't they seen enough of how it can backfire? In the case of Mao Asada?
 
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Lucky Star

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Yes, I don't think we will see another girl from Russia or from any other country with 3A in the next few years, but not because there are no girls who can potentially do this, they just don't need this. We all saw at the Olympics that Mao had lower scores for 3A-2T in the SP than Yu-Na had for 3Lz-3T. I don't know if it's right or wrong, but girls just don't have any reason to try 3A in competition
 

key65man

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Yes, I don't think we will see another girl from Russia or from any other country with 3A in the next few years, but not because there are no girls who can potentially do this, they just don't need this. We all saw at the Olympics that Mao had lower scores for 3A-2T in the SP than Yu-Na had for 3Lz-3T. I don't know if it's right or wrong, but girls just don't have any reason to try 3A in competition

To be precise, Mao's 3A is a suspect both in terms of quality and success rate (when correctly accounted for techincal issues). Because they wanted her to have 3A when she was at the age to learn "correct techiniques," they took a short cut on it. The result was that she had 3A which was unsustainable under normal circumstances while she got her jump mechanics completely off. Mao could land it -- without having to worry about correct ones -- in Vancouver because she was physically gifted and determined enough to go through the weight loss. The downside of it? Poor overall jump mechanics/techniques. She happens to be greatly gifted physically to have managed to pull it off in Vancouver. But, the opportunity cost of it has been way too great.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
To be precise, Mao's 3A is a suspect both in terms of quality and success rate (when correctly accounted for techincal issues). Because they wanted her to have 3A when she was at the age to learn "correct techiniques," they took a short cut on it. The result was that she had 3A which was unsustainable under normal circumstances while she got her jump mechanics completely off. Mao could land it -- without having to worry about correct ones -- in Vancouver because she was physically gifted and determined enough to go through the weight loss. The downside of it? Poor overall jump mechanics/techniques. She happens to be greatly gifted physically to have managed to pull it off in Vancouver. But, the opportunity cost of it has been way too great.

I am sorry but aren't these only your assumptions? I don't think it's the 3A itself that is the cause of Mao's jump problems. Her first coach Machiko doesn't teach her students the best techniques. Kanako has a flutz and she doesn't even do the 3A. So Mao's flutz probably is not related to her 3A. Actually, her jumps were much more stable before she started fixing her lutz.
 

key65man

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
I am sorry but aren't these only your assumptions? I don't think it's the 3A itself that is the cause of Mao's jump problems. Her first coach Machiko doesn't teach her students the best techniques. Kanako has a flutz and she doesn't even do the 3A. So Mao's flutz probably is not related to her 3A. Actually, her jumps were much more stable before she started fixing her lutz.

I did not say 3A was the cause. The cause for Mao's poor jump mechanics/technique is that she did not spend enough time to learn correct techniques. Instead, she "saved" time by learning incorrect techniques and invested the saving on 3A. Kanako's issue is different. She is not as physically gifted as Mao. She uses her speed better than Mao. But, her mechanics are off, which is why she needs a high-kick. Is this correctable? Yes. But, her team may not go for correcting it any time soon because she can win with it right now. Can she in future? Probably not.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I did not say 3A was the cause. The cause for Mao's poor jump mechanics/technique is that she did not spend enough time to learn correct techniques. Instead, she "saved" time by learning incorrect techniques and invested the saving on 3A. Kanako's issue is different. She is not as physically gifted as Mao. She uses her speed better than Mao. But, her mechanics are off, which is why she needs a high-kick. Is this correctable? Yes. But, her team may not go for correcting it any time soon because she can win with it right now. Can she in future? Probably not.

But this part is your assumption, because we cannot say that for sure. When she was younger, she only did one 3A, so I don't know how it could have been her savior back then especially since it was never 100% consistent. She only started using it to replace other jumps recently and that was after her attempt to fix some of her jumps did not go well. I think the fact that Machiko's students all seemed to have questionable techniques in their jumps can be more attributed to the coach than to her students. Midori was an exception but she had that natural physique that Mao and Kanako do not. Still even then, Midori had a leg wrap.
 

key65man

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
But this part is your assumption, because we cannot say that for sure. When she was younger, she only did one 3A, so I don't know how it could have been her savior back then especially since it was never 100% consistent. She only started using it to replace other jumps recently and that was after her attempt to fix some of her jumps did not go well. I think the fact that Machiko's students all seemed to have questionable techniques in their jumps can be more attributed to the coach than to her students. Midori was an exception but she had that natural physique that Mao and Kanako do not. Still even then, Midori had a leg wrap.

Mao spent a lot of time on 3A and a little on 4. She did not land 3A consistently, which does not mean she did not spend lots of time on it. She did. She was doing alright with flutz and odd flip before, so she really did not need to hit it consistently in competitions. I agree that Machiko's pupils have an issue with correct technique. That does not mean she does not want to teach the right techniques as proven by Midori. But, it seems to be more about winning competitions to Machiko, which is why her pupils often end up with incorrect techniques because incorrect techniques can afford them higher level jumps and landing them at the ealier stage of development as skaters. In the process, it really deteoriates their chance at success after their bodies mature. Short term gain vs. Long term planning.

If it is semantics that bothers you, then yes, my argument is partly of assumption. You decide if my argument has explanatory power or not.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I worry that some of the Russian babies are to focused on getting the jumps and not enough on doing them correctly. But I don't worry about this being the case with Elizaveta. Mishin is not a coach who teaches his skaters shoddy jumping technique. And he's not going to start this with Elizaveta. Elizaveta doesn't have just good speed, she also has very good technique on all her jumps.

If Elizaveta learns the 3axel, I'm sure Mishin will teach her the jump the correct way...When it comes to the jumps, Elizaveta is in good hands.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I worry that some of the Russian babies are to focused on getting the jumps and not enough on doing them correctly. But I don't worry about this being the case with Elizaveta. Mishin is not a coach who teaches his skaters shoddy jumping technique. And he's not going to start this with Elizaveta. Elizaveta doesn't have just good speed, she also has very good technique on all her jumps.

If Elizaveta learns the 3axel, I'm sure Mishin will teach her the jump the correct way...When it comes to the jumps, Elizaveta is in good hands.

Yeah, her jump technique is good, but she also falls a lot :eek:hwell:
 

zizi31

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Yeah, her jump technique is good, but she also falls a lot :eek:hwell:

I think she's with Mishin only part time because her family can't afford for her to move to train with him full time. Hopefully she'll soon get some funding from the federation to make that possible. Mishin is good with the jumps, but I'm worried that she'll start doing empty programs like Plush. Hopefully she'll get a different choreographer. Although, I don't know if the poor music choices and the non-CoP-friendly choreography were Mishin's fault, or if they were done at Plush's insistence (or due to his knee problems).
 

oleada

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
I don't think Elizaveta falls much more than the average junior lady. Her SP at Nationals was an off performance, and the fall on the 3S in the long was understandable given the hard entry into the jump. She seems to step out/have messy landings more than fall.

Sotnikova has had a lot more falls this year.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I don't think Elizaveta falls much more than the average junior lady. Her SP at Nationals was an off performance, and the fall on the 3S in the long was understandable given the hard entry into the jump. She seems to step out/have messy landings more than fall.

Sotnikova has had a lot more falls this year.

Yeah. Elizaveta is 13, and 13 year olds are inconsistent.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I don't think Elizaveta falls much more than the average junior lady. Her SP at Nationals was an off performance, and the fall on the 3S in the long was understandable given the hard entry into the jump. She seems to step out/have messy landings more than fall.

Sotnikova has had a lot more falls this year.

Yeah, I was just surprised that both Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva were beaten by Agafonova, Shelepen, and Ovcharova at junior nationals, especially considering both Shelepen and Ovhcarova had poor SPs there. I do think it's just partly to do with age, because Agafonova and Ovcharova are about the same age as Liza and Adelina and also are somewhat inconsistent and have falls fairly frequently, if I had to guess all of them have probably grown a lot recently and are adjusting to their longer legs.
 

Fashionista

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
I think she's with Mishin only part time because her family can't afford for her to move to train with him full time. Hopefully she'll soon get some funding from the federation to make that possible.
Federation rents apartments for her in St.Pete so she can train in Petersburg whenever she wants. Generally Federation spends huge amount of money on Liza.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Federation rents apartments for her in St.Pete so she can train in Petersburg whenever she wants. Generally Federation spends huge amount of money on Liza.

She's only 13, she doesn't live by herself! As far as I know, she still lives in her small village with her family and goes out to St. Petersburg every 2 weeks to train with Mishin.
 

Fashionista

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
This is true. I didn't say she lived alone in St. Pete. But Federation rents her apartments permanently.
BTW Glazov is not a small village, it's a city with population about 100 000.
 
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