The Camel Spin and the Male Skater | Golden Skate

The Camel Spin and the Male Skater

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
What is it about that spin that most men avoid it, or just do a cursory lift of the leg and drop to the more comfortable sitsspin? By putting one's leg in the camel position, one will lose speed on the spin unless the skater has worked on it as Alissa Czisny has. How many work on it for speed?

And how many work on the correct defined position, of free leg above the head?

Nobu, Jeremy, Brian have adequate position. do they have speed?
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
it's an interesting question because I LOVE how the camel spin looks on men when they do it well. I imagine stretch and turnout are important for this spin and maybe not many men have that or care about it.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
It's the same as a man doing a spiral - they are made differently than women and so the flexibility just isn't there for them and would require a great deal of work to get a decent camel spin.

Jeremy has good speed on his.
 

Ginask8s

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Its hard to get a high level on the camel, because the bullets are quite difficult and many require alot of flexibility, which the men dont all have. They can collect the points quicker in a sit
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
I do not understand why not. You don't have to be that flexible to do camel. A lot of lower level male skaters can do the camel just fine with a decent position. You need more tension than flexibility to get the speed.
 

sk8rdad

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
What is it about that spin that most men avoid it, or just do a cursory lift of the leg and drop to the more comfortable sitsspin? By putting one's leg in the camel position, one will lose speed on the spin unless the skater has worked on it as Alissa Czisny has. How many work on it for speed?

And how many work on the correct defined position, of free leg above the head?

Nobu, Jeremy, Brian have adequate position. do they have speed?

Your definition of correct position is wrong. From Wikiepedia "The basic camel spin position is defined as one in which the free leg is extended backwards with the knee held above hip level". An excellent camel spin requires as much practice as any jump element. I remember being at the Granite Club in Toronto and Kurt Browning spending an entire session doing nothing but camel spins to refine his technique. In general I find many of the male skaters don't give the non-jump elements as much practice time as they should and as a result don't have great technique on these elements. Perhaps if the fans and media hyped the camel as much as they do the quad we would see more good ones.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
I echo the sentiments stated by everyone else that the camel position is free foot at or above hip height (not above the head height).

I think the main reason that skaters use the sit spin more than the camel is that one of the bullets for a higher level is 8 revolutions in the basic position. Hitting 8revs on a sit spin is relatively easy compared to a camel. A lot of the men this season were hitting the 8 revs in a difficult variation position thus ticking two boxes for teh one position.

On a combination spin if you hit all three basic positions for a tleast two revs then that's another bullet - so you never really have to perfect a long camel spin to get a good score. You could plan a spin with e.g. back entry 3 revs in the back camel position down to sit spin (difficult variation) for 8 revs, up to upright for a more than two, change to forward upright for i think a level 4 spin.

Add to that most skates use their difficult variation in every spin...there's not much point for a skater to bust a gut trying to get better camel spin when they don't need it.

Ant
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Actually, Ant, the three positions is required on both feet for the bullet in a CCoSp, but if there's a difficult variation of the upright or a change of edge, that would satisfy a L4.

Difficult camel spin variations typically include the layover (very few men can achieve this successfully as it requires flexibility similar to a layback in the hip and back) or catch foot/donut position (which again requires a back flexibility most men would need to work on harder than a 3A to possibly achieve). There's also the COE (which is really scary on a camel compared to a sit or upright to control), 8 revs in position (difficult due to the center of gravity/larger rotational body from the position of a proper camel versus a sit or layback), and the clear increase of speed (there's no way to generate this that I have been able to come up with in a camel spin and still maintain the definition of camel spin).
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I didn't go to Wikipedia for a definition of the Camel position. All I said was that the free leg should be above the head in the position - that would satisfy the wikipedia definition. There is no way one can put his free leg above his head and not have his hip move accordingly. Many elements in figure skating which involve the free leg are better served with the knee turned out and toe pointed. That's a given.

Those men who can not do a proper camel spin can only do two rotations anyway. Just wondering if it gets much judging attention as does the UR.
 

sk8rdad

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
You still aren't understanding.... free leg above the head is NOT considered a good camel position as this would imply that the head is too low. This image http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reports/2002-mids/overett-2.jpg shows what would be considered a good camel position. Note that the free leg is slightly above the hip, the back has a good arch and the head is up with the skater looking forward.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
the clear increase of speed (there's no way to generate this that I have been able to come up with in a camel spin and still maintain the definition of camel spin)

You pretty much have to bend the free leg to do this. Could be in the process of getting into a donut or other catch-foot position, which would also give you a difficult variation.

I suppose another option would be to start with arms out to the side in an airplane position and then quickly pull them close to your side. Maybe I'll try that sometime, since I'll never be able to do the catch-foots.
 

sk8rdad

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
You pretty much have to bend the free leg to do this. Could be in the process of getting into a donut or other catch-foot position, which would also give you a difficult variation.

I suppose another option would be to start with arms out to the side in an airplane position and then quickly pull them close to your side. Maybe I'll try that sometime, since I'll never be able to do the catch-foots.

I think the donut is the only currently recognised catch foot position that classifies as a camel spin, all the other catchfoot positions are upright spins AFAIK.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
You still aren't understanding.... free leg above the head is NOT considered a good camel position as this would imply that the head is too low. This image http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reports/2002-mids/overett-2.jpg shows what would be considered a good camel position. Note that the free leg is slightly above the hip, the back has a good arch and the head is up with the skater looking forward.
ewow, you really are intense on the head to free leg. I would say they are both up. I'm not talking about a penchet arabasque if that's what you mean. Maybe this is clearer for you: A standard spiral position spinning is correct. Does that sound better? If you check out the good Pairs Teams, the male skater matches his partner's leg position in spirals and camels. Single male skaters don't bother with that, except those that believe in good line. Check out Lambiels and Takahashis (horrid) against Overett (super! no comparison).

The free leg is placed up and the hip automaticallty goes with it. It's a single movement. Not a hip first and then the free leg. The head is up but it can be down in a Charlotte. Of course, no one does a Charlotte Camel. As for 'horrid camel positions'. maybe they take off for skating skills in PC. If they do they should take off for URs also. JMO.

Back to the point. Are judges concerned about the lack of good camels in single male skating? I don't think so. they are more concerned about how one lands a jump. Jumps mean more in male skating than spin positions.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think the donut is the only currently recognised catch foot position that classifies as a camel spin, all the other catchfoot positions are upright spins AFAIK.

It depends how you get there.
See "Similar" to Biellmann' position at the bottom of p. 10 (p. 4 of 6 in the spins section):
http://www3.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf

Also, what about the "catch-knee" Cranston camel position in the combination spin about 1:38 here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCsQEzXT6xA

No increase of speed, but would that count as a difficult variation? I would hope so.

It's also a rare example of a camel spin with the free foot higher than the head, without holding the blade.

Joe, can you find any videos of camel spins with the free foot higher than the head and no hand assist, from men or women? It's just not very common to have the free foot that high in the spin. In a spiral, absolutely; the balance is different.
 
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