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Thread: The Camel Spin and the Male Skater

  1. #16
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    You still aren't understanding.... free leg above the head is NOT considered a good camel position as this would imply that the head is too low. This image http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/r.../overett-2.jpg shows what would be considered a good camel position. Note that the free leg is slightly above the hip, the back has a good arch and the head is up with the skater looking forward.
    Last edited by sk8rdad; 03-26-2010 at 08:39 AM.

  2. #17
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    the clear increase of speed (there's no way to generate this that I have been able to come up with in a camel spin and still maintain the definition of camel spin)
    You pretty much have to bend the free leg to do this. Could be in the process of getting into a donut or other catch-foot position, which would also give you a difficult variation.

    I suppose another option would be to start with arms out to the side in an airplane position and then quickly pull them close to your side. Maybe I'll try that sometime, since I'll never be able to do the catch-foots.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    You pretty much have to bend the free leg to do this. Could be in the process of getting into a donut or other catch-foot position, which would also give you a difficult variation.

    I suppose another option would be to start with arms out to the side in an airplane position and then quickly pull them close to your side. Maybe I'll try that sometime, since I'll never be able to do the catch-foots.
    I think the donut is the only currently recognised catch foot position that classifies as a camel spin, all the other catchfoot positions are upright spins AFAIK.

  4. #19
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8rdad View Post
    You still aren't understanding.... free leg above the head is NOT considered a good camel position as this would imply that the head is too low. This image http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/r.../overett-2.jpg shows what would be considered a good camel position. Note that the free leg is slightly above the hip, the back has a good arch and the head is up with the skater looking forward.
    ewow, you really are intense on the head to free leg. I would say they are both up. I'm not talking about a penchet arabasque if that's what you mean. Maybe this is clearer for you: A standard spiral position spinning is correct. Does that sound better? If you check out the good Pairs Teams, the male skater matches his partner's leg position in spirals and camels. Single male skaters don't bother with that, except those that believe in good line. Check out Lambiels and Takahashis (horrid) against Overett (super! no comparison).

    The free leg is placed up and the hip automaticallty goes with it. It's a single movement. Not a hip first and then the free leg. The head is up but it can be down in a Charlotte. Of course, no one does a Charlotte Camel. As for 'horrid camel positions'. maybe they take off for skating skills in PC. If they do they should take off for URs also. JMO.

    Back to the point. Are judges concerned about the lack of good camels in single male skating? I don't think so. they are more concerned about how one lands a jump. Jumps mean more in male skating than spin positions.

  5. #20
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    I think the donut is the only currently recognised catch foot position that classifies as a camel spin, all the other catchfoot positions are upright spins AFAIK.
    It depends how you get there.
    See "Similar" to Biellmann' position at the bottom of p. 10 (p. 4 of 6 in the spins section):
    http://www3.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page...-0-file,00.pdf

    Also, what about the "catch-knee" Cranston camel position in the combination spin about 1:38 here?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCsQEzXT6xA

    No increase of speed, but would that count as a difficult variation? I would hope so.

    It's also a rare example of a camel spin with the free foot higher than the head, without holding the blade.

    Joe, can you find any videos of camel spins with the free foot higher than the head and no hand assist, from men or women? It's just not very common to have the free foot that high in the spin. In a spiral, absolutely; the balance is different.

  6. #21
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Does the Cranston camel require signifcant torso/core body change? Then it would be a difficult variation, if not, it's merely "pretty" and may factor into GOEs. The "martini" position that Karademir does also qualifies as a difficult variation of the camel which I neglected to mention in my first list.

    There is a skater at our rink who does a camel with HER leg significantly higher than her head (she also has a near 180 split spiral without warming up). Most of the guys at our rink do a "mamel" (man camel which is more sideways in the core than the body down).

  7. #22
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    you've got me thinking now. I think we are confusing the torso. I believe in the book of definitions, it's the torso that is paralel with the ice, and the free leg and head are where one puts them. The boys have trouble with the forward entry into a camel. The back camel as a result of a flying is passable.

    I've been away from skating for some time and really not familiar with Toller Cranston but I've heard quite a bit about him.

    Skaters tend to arch the lower back, but in ballet class I was told to arch the upper back. (It's blasphemy to appear acrobatic in classic ballet.)

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    ewow, you really are intense on the head to free leg. I would say they are both up. I'm not talking about a penchet arabasque if that's what you mean. Maybe this is clearer for you: A standard spiral position spinning is correct. Does that sound better? If you check out the good Pairs Teams, the male skater matches his partner's leg position in spirals and camels. Single male skaters don't bother with that, except those that believe in good line. Check out Lambiels and Takahashis (horrid) against Overett (super! no comparison).

    The free leg is placed up and the hip automaticallty goes with it. It's a single movement. Not a hip first and then the free leg. The head is up but it can be down in a Charlotte. Of course, no one does a Charlotte Camel. As for 'horrid camel positions'. maybe they take off for skating skills in PC. If they do they should take off for URs also. JMO.

    Back to the point. Are judges concerned about the lack of good camels in single male skating? I don't think so. they are more concerned about how one lands a jump. Jumps mean more in male skating than spin positions.
    So what your suggesting is a camel spin with the free leg at say 45 degrees or more from horizontal but without a hand supporting the position at the knee (see the Toller video gkelly referenced). If it were done it would likely get a variation bullet as I would imagine it would be difficult to accomplish.

    Judges would not alter the SS marks for bad camels as the SS mark has nothing to do with the element that are marked in the TES score the same goes for UR's. The marking of these items is part of the element. From the ISU site here is the definition of SS.

    Skating Skills
    Definition: Over all skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a
    command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc), the clarity of technique, and the use of
    effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.
    Criteria:
    Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement
    Flow and effortless glide
    Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the
    blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and
    acceleration.
    Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
    The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.
    Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
    Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle
    Multi directional skating
    Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and
    counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.
    Mastery of one foot skating
    No over use of skating on two feet.
    Pair Skating and Ice Dancing: Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison.
    Ice Dancing: Compulsory Dance – Ice Coverage

    The judges are concerned with all aspects of skating, this is why skaters like Patrick Chan win medals without having a quad.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    It depends how you get there.
    See "Similar" to Biellmann' position at the bottom of p. 10 (p. 4 of 6 in the spins section):
    http://www3.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page...-0-file,00.pdf

    Also, what about the "catch-knee" Cranston camel position in the combination spin about 1:38 here?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCsQEzXT6xA

    No increase of speed, but would that count as a difficult variation? I would hope so.

    It's also a rare example of a camel spin with the free foot higher than the head, without holding the blade.

    Joe, can you find any videos of camel spins with the free foot higher than the head and no hand assist, from men or women? It's just not very common to have the free foot that high in the spin. In a spiral, absolutely; the balance is different.
    Actually in the Cranston spin (god he was good) his free foot at no time is above his head. The "Similar to Biellmann position" is an interesting issue and I think many skaters avoid it because they are afraid it will get called as an upright which could affect the nature of the spin being called, I know a few coaches that avoid it because some tech callers don't understand that it is a also a camel variation.

  10. #25
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibi24 View Post
    Todd Eldredge gets my vote for best male Camel spin :P
    nope, Kurt Browning wins hands down!

    I love teh classic camel spin for the men and the pairs, not a fan of the ladies doing it though... go figure... I miss it.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by iluvtodd View Post
    Todd does beautiful camel spins.
    nope, Kurt Browning wins hands down!

    I love teh classic camel spin for the men and the pairs, not a fan of the ladies doing it though... go figure... I miss it.
    Browning's was nice too, good arch back like Paul Wylie.

    I like Todd for his LONG camel spins, usually holds for at least 5-8 revolutions. Todd does Camel change camel, and flying camel. While other men usually do Sit change sit, flying sit, or only the camel 2 revs as part of a combo spin. Maybe Todd's CW spin direction and unique position had something to do with it, also the text book centering as well as maintaining speed.

    Yea ladies not so much, I guess they have a bunch of other spins like layback etc.

  12. #27
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post

    I love the classic camel spin for the men and the pairs, not a fan of the ladies doing it though...
    Quote Originally Posted by bibi24 View Post

    Yea ladies not so much, I guess they have a bunch of other spins like layback etc.
    I wonder if there is just something manly and unfeminine about the possition itself.

    Ryan Bradley (young age) http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/r.../bradley-2.jpg

    Tara: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/...-skating-7.jpg

    PS. Is a donut spin a camel variation?

  13. #28
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    I love donut spin! I love donuts in general, spin, chocolate, everything!!
    According to your analysis, Plushy doesnt have good camel??? Just asking theoritically.

  14. #29
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I wonder if there is just something manly and unfeminine about the possition itself.

    Ryan Bradley (young age) http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/r.../bradley-2.jpg

    Tara: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/...-skating-7.jpg

    PS. Is a donut spin a camel variation?
    The Bradley one is more to my liking. The Tara one looks as though she could not get her free foot higher probably because it looks like it's a side camel spin.

    The entry into the forward camel spin is important.

    Stephane and Daisuke enter it as if they would do a straight-up spin, and then lift their hip up dragging the leg into position whereas Jeremy will use a bend down position while lifting his leg up at the same time as his hip. They are already in a parallel position. From then on it's flexibility time.
    The low entry position gathers more speed than the straight hip up entry. The science of physics plays a role here but not sure of the rule.

    I don't know if a donut can be executed on its own terms. I think it needs a camel first for the speed. It's a position way after my time on skates.

  15. #30
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    I love donut spin! I love donuts in general, spin, chocolate, everything!!

    According to your analysis, Plushy doesn't have good camel??? Just asking theoritically.
    Yes, I think Plushenko has an excellent flying camel.

    http://patinajeando.files.wordpress....plushenko2.jpg

    Here are attempts at "girly" versions that I don't care so much for:

    http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/01/83/61/image_361831.jpg

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...r-2O1U2248.jpg

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