Pairs Long Program | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Pairs Long Program

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Two falls are worse than doubling jumps and the unison problem. And K/S long program is awful. Skaters shouldn't get 130 with the kind of errors K/S had in the long.

Are they? Unison problem = skating skill problem. Doubling jumps = backing down from difficulty. One team did a throw quad and went for everything. One team backed down the difficult elements not once, but TWICE. I'm sorry you feel that way because S/S should be bronze or even 4th place. Maria Mukhortova and Maxim should get the bronze. PCS saved them in the SP and the LP.
 

SamuraiKike

Medalist
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Then tell me are P/T faster than S/S? Do they have better ice coverage? What about better edges? While I like the guy on that team, Pang's posture and extension is no where near as good as Aliona's. And while Aliona is better than Robin, Robin isn't exactly weak in terms of line or posture. Now you can think Aliona and Robin's free is about bland here, but in terms of basics, Aliona and Robin as a team ARE better than Pang and Tong.

And K/S are better than Pang and Tong in terms of basics too. I don't care for them but when it comes to deep edges and things like that K/S are better. Now in terms of packaging I agree that I hate K/S's program.

*sighs* you are missing the whole point here. Like I said in a previous post, SS has better skills , I agree with you there, and If I were judging I would have given higher marks there, But Im not expecting every person in the world to feel the same, FS is not a written in stone art/sport aprrecciation and there's definetly a case for PT being higher (Tong is the better skater of the four IMO), so a small margin like 0.15 points is hardly ridiculous as you pointed.

By the way, last time I checked posture and extention are nowhere in the criteria set for the marking of the SS component.
 

piano18

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
While I like the guy on that team, Pang's posture and extension is no where near as good as Aliona's.
.

well DUH of course not since when are posture and extension and limbs included in the skating skills criterion?
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Are they? Unison problem = skating skill problem. Doubling jumps = backing down from difficulty. One team did a throw quad and went for everything. One team backed down the difficult elements not once, but TWICE. I'm sorry you feel that way because S/S should be bronze or even 4th place. Maria Mukhortova and Maxim should get the bronze. PCS saved them in the SP and the LP.

I'm wondering Flatt if you actually watched the long program because from what I saw Maria and Maxim had two major mistakes in their long program. Maria two footed the first jump in her sequence and then SINGLED the second jump. Last time I checked a single is a lot worse than a double jump. (Don't you agree?) I mean seriously it was what a double toe that Maria couldn't do. And then of course Maria and Maxim had a fall too. And well of course S/S had a lot more difficult choregraphy than M/T.

And K/S had TWO falls in their program. They couldn't manage to land a single throw in their program.

well DUH of course not since when are posture and extension and limbs included in the skating skills criterion?

Well the USFSA talked about having good skating skills along with posture in their note about skating skills. But carriage is absolutely included in Performance and Execution.
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I'm wondering Flatt if you actually watched the long program because from what I saw Maria and Maxim had two major mistakes in their long program. Maria two footed the first jump in her sequence and then SINGLED the second jump. Last time I checked a single is a lot worse than a double jump. (Don't you agree?) I mean seriously it was what a double toe that Maria couldn't do. And then of course Maria and Maxim had a fall too. And well of course S/S had a lot more difficult choregraphy than M/T.

And K/S had TWO falls in their program. They couldn't manage to land a single throw in their program.

Maria/Maxim had 2 major mistakes in their LP, that's true. But their SP was superior to S/S SP. You could make a case for them to be in 3rd place. I don't recall saying Maria/Maxim was clean in the LP, so what exactly are you talking about here?
 

Audrey19

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Are they? Unison problem = skating skill problem. Doubling jumps = backing down from difficulty. One team did a throw quad and went for everything. One team backed down the difficult elements not once, but TWICE. I'm sorry you feel that way because S/S should be bronze or even 4th place. Maria Mukhortova and Maxim should get the bronze. PCS saved them in the SP and the LP.

Right, and figure skating is a sport is only about jumps. Beauty, skating skills, complex choreography, innovation, artistry, spins, unison, chemistry, lifts, transitions or something like a wow-factor don't matter at all in pairs skating.
K/S medalling is ridiculous, it puts figure skating to shame.
Did you realize the reaction of the audience to Aliona & Robin's free skate? The performance was magical and the audience started to clap and cheer very loudly a few seconds before their program ended, and their applause was the highest of all the teams by far, even at the medal ceremony compared to Pang & Tong. no way the diference between them and K&S was only one point.
Shame on you, judges!
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Right, and figure skating is a sport is only about jumps. Beauty, skating skills, complex choreography, innovation, artistry, spins, unison, chemistry, lifts, transitions or something like a wow-factor don't matter at all in pairs skating.
K/S medalling is ridiculous, it puts figure skating to shame.
Did you realize the reaction of the audience to Aliona & Robin's free skate? The performance was magical and the audience started to clap and cheer very loudly a few seconds before their program ended, and their applause was the highest of all the teams by far, even at the medal ceremony compared to Pang & Tong. no way the diference between them and K&S was only one point.
Shame on you, judges!

What do you expect the difference between them and K/S to be when their SP was terrible, slow, emotionally disjointed, couldn't deliver the complex choreography, no innovation, no unison, no wow-factor?
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
What do you expect the difference between them and K/S to be when their SP was terrible, slow, emotionally disjointed, couldn't deliver the complex choreography, no innovation, no unison, no wow-factor?

And K/S's long program was terrible. As for S/S's short program having no innovation-I have to ask you-really?.. Because I have to disagree. I think its by far the most innovative short this season, to the point of being controversial. Yes they messed up two elements and weren't as fast as they normally were. But they definetly deserved at least silver considering how horrible K/S's long program was and how not so great M/T's long was as well.

Lack of unison on spins is ONE unison element. Its the only area where at times S/S lack. A nd the winners also have problems with unison on their spins too.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
And K/S's long program was terrible. As for S/S's short program having no innovation-I have to ask you-really?.. Because I have to disagree. I think its by far the most innovative short this season, to the point of being controversial. Yes they messed up two elements and weren't as fast as they normally were. But they definetly deserved at least silver considering how horrible K/S's long program was and how not so great M/T's long was as well.

Lack of unison on spins is ONE unison element. Its the only area where at times S/S lack. A nd the winners also have problems with unison on their spins too.

Yes, I said no innovation. They skated to "send in the clowns" and they were so literal with their SP. Commentators said it at one point or another since the GP series earlier in the season. Their SP was as flat as the Zhangs, even without factoring the 2 glaring mistakes.
I would think a controversial program would be the OD from Domnina and Shabalin. I wish S/S SP is a bit controversial, because it is so contrived and expected. mime act, clown tears? Where is the innovation in that?
I was responding to the poster who thought it's ridiculous that S/S only beat K/S by 1 point. Well, they screwed up their SP pretty badly and weren't clean in their LP. The result could tip the other way if the judges give K/S the kind of PCS S/S get.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
My first post, please be gentle...

With that being said, I'm not sure why there is so much hate for K/S. It's one thing to not like a style or a certain program, but to dismiss and entire long program because of two falls is not the reality in judging and certainly not fair. They have so much difficulty on that program the base score is 60 vs. 56 and 55 for S/S and M/T.

The reason K/S are ranked #1 in Russia is because they are better than M/T. Out of over 15 competitions where they competed against each other M/T have only beat K/S twice. GPF 2009 where M/T were 4th and K/S 5th and Euros in 2008 when M/T were silver and K/S got bronze. K/S have their issues...I hate every time she crashes into him on the split twist (she is going to dislocate HIS shoulder!) but I like the athleticism they have, he is strong and she is flexible. I appreciate the fact that they tried the quad knowing she might fall and they both seemed to shake off the mistakes and skate clean the rest of the program. Unlike the Olympics where it effected them the whole time. They seem to have a dedication M/T don't have. Especially judging by the interviews they both give.

I saw them skate at Euros this year and the biggest difference between K/S and S/S is the speed and coverage over the ice. K/S were so fast and covered so much ice it was like watching a tennis match but S/S were slow like they were skating in mud. They were elegant and beautiful but watching them was like watching an ice show not a competition. I think both Russian pairs will improve but I think S/S have done as much as they can unless they step it up.

As for M/T, my Russian is really poor but from what I can gather, he seems like a real jerk. My heart went out to him after the short program at the Olympics, his reaction was heartbreaking. But he seems to be his own worst enemy. If he wants to be #1 in Russia he needs to work, not talk. If it's his partner...change partners, if it's the coach...get rid of him. If he wants it bad enough, he should make the changes. It's not fair to Maria or his next partner should they break up. I hope they stay together I don't think Tatiana is any better than Maria. IMO I don't think Tatiana is that great. If they pair up they will still be around 4th place. I don't see them getting good enough for gold.

At any rate I think they all need long vacations.
 

watchvancouver

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I saw them skate at Euros this year and the biggest difference between K/S and S/S is the speed and coverage over the ice. K/S were so fast and covered so much ice it was like watching a tennis match but S/S were slow like they were skating in mud. .

K/S are faster than S/S and have better ice coverage? Gosh, everybody seems to have his/her own stop watch. I guess if K/S stayed on moon, they would definitely skate faster than S/S on earth.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
K/S are faster than S/S and have better ice coverage? Gosh, everybody seems to have his/her own stop watch. I guess if K/S stayed on moon, they would definitely skate faster than S/S on earth.

Did you not watch the programs? S/S were so slow in both programs. Didn't need a stop watch to see that.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
My first post, please be gentle...

With that being said, I'm not sure why there is so much hate for K/S. It's one thing to not like a style or a certain program, but to dismiss and entire long program because of two falls is not the reality in judging and certainly not fair. They have so much difficulty on that program the base score is 60 vs. 56 and 55 for S/S and M/T.

The reason K/S are ranked #1 in Russia is because they are better than M/T. Out of over 15 competitions where they competed against each other M/T have only beat K/S twice. GPF 2009 where M/T were 4th and K/S 5th and Euros in 2008 when M/T were silver and K/S got bronze. K/S have their issues...I hate every time she crashes into him on the split twist (she is going to dislocate HIS shoulder!) but I like the athleticism they have, he is strong and she is flexible. I appreciate the fact that they tried the quad knowing she might fall and they both seemed to shake off the mistakes and skate clean the rest of the program. Unlike the Olympics where it effected them the whole time. They seem to have a dedication M/T don't have. Especially judging by the interviews they both give.

I saw them skate at Euros this year and the biggest difference between K/S and S/S is the speed and coverage over the ice. K/S were so fast and covered so much ice it was like watching a tennis match but S/S were slow like they were skating in mud. They were elegant and beautiful but watching them was like watching an ice show not a competition. I think both Russian pairs will improve but I think S/S have done as much as they can unless they step it up.

As for M/T, my Russian is really poor but from what I can gather, he seems like a real jerk. My heart went out to him after the short program at the Olympics, his reaction was heartbreaking. But he seems to be his own worst enemy. If he wants to be #1 in Russia he needs to work, not talk. If it's his partner...change partners, if it's the coach...get rid of him. If he wants it bad enough, he should make the changes. It's not fair to Maria or his next partner should they break up. I hope they stay together I don't think Tatiana is any better than Maria. IMO I don't think Tatiana is that great. If they pair up they will still be around 4th place. I don't see them getting good enough for gold.

At any rate I think they all need long vacations.
OK, I will be very gentle:)

Could you explain to me, how K/S ended up defeating M/T in the SP by 2 points? I am sorry to say this but it looked to me an pre-arranged ranking between these two teams. M/T were absolutely flawless, while K / S were not. I personally prefer M // T long lines and shapes to K / S. but that is an opinion, however, I cannot accept glitches overloked with one team, which were not sever, but should have lowered the grade of execution of those elements, but the judges take the PCS weapon and re-arrange the ranking as they wish.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
OK, I will be very gentle:)

Could you explain to me, how K/S ended up defeating M/T in the SP by 2 points? I am sorry to say this but it looked to me an pre-arranged ranking between these two teams. M/T were absolutely flawless, while K / S were not. I personally prefer M // T long lines and shapes to K / S. but that is an opinion, however, I cannot accept glitches overloked with one team, which were not sever, but should have lowered the grade of execution of those elements, but the judges take the PCS weapon and re-arrange the ranking as they wish.

M/T M twofooted the triple toe, then single toe on her combo.
T fell on one of the two throw.
Flawless?
 

hikki

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Country
Japan
As much as I thought Pang & Tong deserved Gold in Vancouver, I much preferred Savchenko & Szolkowy's performances here.What beautiful programs, what beautiful skaters. They blend CoP elements so effectively with the music while showing so much gentle emotion. Love them!
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
I hardly look at M/T SP as being flawless, I saw many small inconsistancies in lifts and spins that I didn't see in K/S. Not to mention the base value of each has to be taken into account. I do think their score were low and they should have easily been in front of S/S who skated a terrible SP. M/T footwork wasn't as nearly nice to watch as the top teams and if the difficulty is not there just skating around and looking elegant won't cut it.

If there was such blantant bias going on with the judges they would have had S/S in second and not third. I personally think they should have been fourth.
 

CPWest

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Sorry about the double posting. Forgot to attach the quote. Totally agreed. Yes, P/T didn't repeat their OLY performance this time, which is a bit disappointing. But they never won because of "a strong federation" (this works better for K/S) or any favors. They fought so hard for so long to improve their standing in the judges' minds. S/S happened to do well on their long program this time, but they are not consistent skaters at all. That's why they always faltered whenever S/Z, the true dominant pair, is in the same competition.

Second this!! I am so thrilled that Pand and Tong won the gold and also get recognized by judges through their consistent performances during the past season. They have been underated for so long and if they did have a strong fedaration like K/S to back them up, they would have had a few gold already and even the one in Vancouver. How often can you remember that SS would have a clean performance? once a season as i can remember!! PT's performances in Vancouver was an all time high and not too many skaters can skate like that even once in a life time. I totally understand that it might not come this time, i am just happy they performed the way they did and got the well-deserved gold medal.
 

CPWest

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Congrats to Pang and Tong very happy for them. Aliona and Robin skated a great program too.
K/S made the podium they must be happy after placing 4th in Vancouver. I have to say
when their score came up I was very surprised. I thought the Zhangs were undermarked.

Yes, the Zhangs were undermarked right from the SP. They should do their Free Skate in the last group instead of SS. So anybody who complained that SS did not get a higher score in the free skate should remember that the judges already did them a favor to skate in the last group. Otherwise, their score will be probably lower for the same kind of performances.
 
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