Strange results in the men's short

[silverlake22]

I don't think Rachael is the greatest. Do I think she's top 3 at the Olympics? No. Do I think she should be ahead of Mirai, Miki, Lepisto? Absolutely yes.

Well her 3f-3t is solid and she's consistent but her spins, flexibility, speed, and presence on the ice don't compare to Mirai's, her basic skating and edge quality is nowhere near that of Laura, and she doesn't get as much height in her jumps as Miki. All four of these skaters are fairly comparable, but I don't agree that Rachael is absolutely better than the other three. She can do difficult jumps, yes, but the jumps themselves aren't actually that impressive and she's a bit slow and sloppy in her spins/presentation. That's just how I see it. If they were all at their best, I would rank Rachael last among the 4, but Rachael rarely makes mistakes so if the others do and she is clean, then sure she should be ahead, but you're forgetting that Mirai and Miki skated clean LPs at the Olympics and Laura only doubled one jump.

[lavender]

Joubert is doing one bigger jump than mostly everyone else. That's only one jump and it's shouldn't stop him from having transitions. It certainly shouldn't stop him from having better and more intricate choreography.

[wallylutz]

Are you serious?
Terry asked a panel of skaters during the Olympics.
Terry: Do you think the base value of the quad should be higher?
Kristi: Yes
Peter: Yes
Michael Weiss: Yes

Yesterday, Peter asked the same question
Tara: Yes
Johnny: Yes.

A simple yes is a simple yes. They all said the base should be worth more. Currently it's 4.3. So obviously the difference 4.3 is NOT enough.

I added way too many names to that list? You think I just made up these things? Anyone who has Universal Sports and watched these segment can back me up.

Yes, I am totally serious. Plus, some of them didn't actually say: "yes". You simply interpreted their non-verbal language the way you see fit. Even then, the current base value of Quad toe is 9.8, not 4.3 as you incorrectly stated in your post, it tells me you have no idea what you are talking about (see bold). Since you don't even know the numbers, what makes you think everyone know this CALCULATED number by heart? What makes you think the people being asked are aware of the numerial difference, which comes from 9.8 - 5.5 despite the fact that none of them had seen the protocol yet as Johnny admitted that he didn't? What makes you think they are fully aware of the thoughts process going into? As far as I am concerned, none of the people you quoted have actually sit in a judge chair's and actually quantify the impact of these jumps. All they go by is their hunch and they were asked a hot button generic question, where controversy makes good TV. I feel pretty confident when they are presented with the complete picture of what that difference actually is between a 4T and a 3F, some of them will change their mind.

All they had to go by was a hunch. But once told that Joubert admitted having errors on spins and steps sequences and even his jump combo wasn't as smooth as the other 2 in the post-SP conference, I bet you many of these same "experts" you quoted would be suddenly and quick to change their take because they'd be amaze how much sway the Quad actually hold to keep Joubert's TES on top despite those misses.

[FlattFan]

Yes, I am totally serious. Plus, some of them didn't actually say: "yes". You simply interpreted their non-verbal language the way you see fit. Even then, the current base value of Quad toe is 9.8, not 4.3 as you incorrectly stated in your post, it tells me you have no idea what you are talking about (see bold). Since you don't even know the numbers, what makes you think everyone know this CALCULATED number by heart? What makes you think the people being asked are aware of the numerial difference, which comes from 9.8 - 5.5 despite the fact that none of them had seen the protocol yet as Johnny admitted that he didn't? What makes you think they are fully aware of the thoughts process going into? As far as I am concerned, none of the people you quoted have actually sit in a judge chair's and actually quantify the impact of these jumps. All they go by is their hunch and they were asked a hot button generic question, where controversy makes good TV. I feel pretty confident when they are presented with the complete picture of what that difference actually is between a 4T and a 3F, some of them will change their mind.

All they had to go by was a hunch? But once told that Joubert admitted having errors on spins and steps sequences and even his jump combo wasn't as smooth as the other 2 in the post-SP conference, I bet you many of these same "experts" you quoted would be suddenly and quick to change their take.

OMG. 4.3 was the difference between the 4T-3T and 3F-3T combo. I wasn't talking about the base value for the quad. Sometimes reading required context. Sadly you didn't understand. Which one didn't actually say yes? Please give a name because I watched the interviews and all said yes.

[wallylutz]

OMG. 4.3 was the difference between the 4T-3T and 3F-3T combo. I wasn't talking about the base value for the quad. Sometimes reading required context. Sadly you didn't understand. Which one didn't actually say yes? Please give a name because I watched the interviews and all said yes.

Is that so, here is a direct quote from you: <<They all said the base should be worth more. Currently it's 4.3>>

In English, it refers to the last noun referenced, which is the word "base" in this case. In other words, your sentence can be re-written as Currently base is 4.3

I think I read you more than correctly. Just admit you made a gaffe and move on, it's not a big deal, nobody requires you to know the point table by heart in order to participate here. It's legitimate question that reasonable people can disagree. It is what is though, just as you can find some skaters who said it's undervalued, there will be tons other who disagreed. And all those opinions are valid. The point is these numbers aren't derived by some amateurs as you first implied and that I am insistant that you take it back because that's quite disrespectful towards the men and women who worked on the IJS project to get us where we are today.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Could you please go back to the original post that I have responded to? I was refering to what Poodlepal said.:sheesh:

I agree with you on this. To me, Chan does have connections with the audience but his performance was just that. It was not on the par with Takahashi and Joubert. I actually think that Joubert did better than Takahashi this time. I don't see anything from Chan should be better than Joubert in PCS except TR. In SS, his spin might be better but Joubert did a perfect 4-3 (the only one in the top 6 skaters). So their SS should be at least even or Joubert's higher.



Again, you took my post out of context! Mister!

No, Chan's skating is not all about the deep edges, BUT his deep edge seems to have covered everything in judges' mind and in many Chan's fans' mind, and been hyped as the next best thing, or rather the best thing in the world right now. He has deep edges in his skating better than most of the male skaters. That's it, and that's all. Too much emphasize on the edges. That is not right! That is not all the men's skating about. He is competitive in his skating. However, does he have the best spin in the world? Does he have the best jump in the world? (Goodness, he is struggling with his 3A a lot of the times.) His footwork is one of the best in the world but is not THE best. His program is definitely not the best. It's just an average in the top 6 skaters. He didn't go all the way out in his performance. So he is over scored. Period!

1. Thanks for your response.

2. I don't think I took your initial comment out of context. I do believe that Poodlepal was being sarcastic. I have no such read on you, so I asked you to explain.

3. Following the list wallylutz posted, where do you feel Joubert was scored incorrectly with SS?

4. Who has the best spin in the world? Who has the best jumps (and you can break that down and go technique and consistency if you want)?, Who has the best footwork? Who has the best program (because it's "definitely not" Joubert. He was overscored. period). Realistically, you're gonna come up with two or three names for each, and maybe one or two skaters will have more than one slot. But if you think Chan's just average in the top six, then we'll have to agree to disagree, again.

[FlattFan]

Reading what Wally said - and others - a quad right now does not automatically mean a skater wins. Not to bring up Goebel again - but if one quad beats no quads - then you lose me in your logic coz it easily follows that 4 quads beat 3 quads.

OK- that is not what you are saying. But what are you saying? That one quad is enough to beat superior TR, CH, IN, spins and steps?

Did I say one quad is enough to beat superior TR, CH, IN, spins and steps?
doing quad should relieve TR a bit. So TR score should factor into a program with quad. Say you do 5 transitions + quad should get you the same score as doing 7 transitions + no quad.
Joubert interpretation to his music, performance and executation are also better.

One quad without anything else is not enough. one quad with everything Joubert did should put him ahead of Patrick Chan by a comfortable margin. That's what I meant to say.

[Bennett]

I recall myself not a great fan of Joubert's skating and discounted his other elements than jumps before. But I think that he has improved a lot in his other elements such as spins and steps, transitions, choreos, interpretation, and costuming. This program was more memorable for me than Chan's, Abott's, Koz's, and Oda's SPs, even though I generally tend to prefer classical skating.

[janetfan]

OMG. 4.3 was the difference between the 4T-3T and 3F-3T combo. I wasn't talking about the base value for the quad. Sometimes reading required context. Sadly you didn't understand. Which one didn't actually say yes? Please give a name because I watched the interviews and all said yes.

I watched too - and Johnyy being Johnny he sort of flip-flopped. I believe he initially said Brian should have won the SP. Then Johnny being Johnny (remember he is not a judge and hates CoP) he went back and said Dai won. The guy is such a flea brain I certainly would never feel comfortable using his opinion to back up an argument.

BTW - I hope Rachael has fixed up the jump problems she had in Vancouver (yea - they had bad air position, were all borderline ur and had some scratchy landings).

I have a hunch this is the last we will see of Rachael - atleast as a serious contender - so I wish her all the best. Maybe she will skate her way to bronze - or even Silver if Mao falls down.
Since Mirai is the better skater and will be around for the next few years I do hope Rachael does her best. She is NOT my favorite skater but I certainly think she is a nice girl. It would be kinda sweet if she ended her competitive career with a World medal.

[silverlake22]

I watched too - and Johnyy being Johnny he sort of flip-flopped. I believe he initially said Brian should have won the SP. Then Johnny being Johnny (remember he is not a judge and hates CoP) he went back and said Dai won. The guy is such a flea brain I certainly would never feel comfortable using his opinion to back up an argument.

BTW - I hope Rachael has fixed up the jump problems she had in Vancouver (yea - they had bad air position, were all borderline ur and had some scratchy landings).

I have a hunch this is the last we will see of Rachael - atleast as a serious contender - so I wish her all the best. Maybe she will skate her way to bronze - or even Silver if Mao falls down.
Since Mirai is the better skater and will be around for the next few years I do hope Rachael does her best. She is NOT my favorite skater but I certainly think she is a nice girl. It would be kinda sweet if she ended her competitive career with a World medal.

I agree, she's def a good skater and a medal isn't out of the question.

[FlattFan]

Is that so, here is a direct quote from you: <<They all said the base should be worth more. Currently it's 4.3>>

In English, it refers to the last noun referenced, which is the word "base" in this case. In other words, your sentence can be re-written as Currently base is 4.3

I think I read you more than correctly. Just admit you made a gaffe and move on, it's not a big deal, nobody requires you to know the point table by heart in order to participate here. It's legitimate question that reasonable people can disagree. It is what is though, just as you can find some skaters who said it's undervalued, there will be tons other who disagreed. And all those opinions are valid. The point is these numbers aren't derived by some amateurs as you first implied and that I am insistant that you take it back because that's quite disrespectful towards the men and women who worked on the IJS project to get us where we are today.

The whole thread has been about 4.3 points difference between the 3F-3T and 4T-3T. Suddenly out of nowhere you started attacking me saying I didn't know what I was talking about because I said 4.3 is the base value for the quad. Follow the thread before sounding off.
Also, all the names I mentioned said base value should be higher. You couldn't even name a single person who didn't say it and you kept on saying I interpreted their non-verbal language.
So for that you're in the ignore list because whatever you will say just wastes my time responding.

[wallylutz]

I watched too - and Johnyy being Johnny he sort of flip-flopped. I believe he initially said Brian should have won the SP. Then Johnny being Johnny (remember he is not a judge and hates CoP) he went back and said Dai won. The guy is such a flea brain I certainly would never feel comfortable using his opinion to back up an argument.

BTW - I hope Rachael has fixed up the jump problems she had in Vancouver (yea - they had bad air position, were all borderline ur and had some scratchy landings).

I have a hunch this is the last we will see of Rachael - atleast as a serious contender - so I wish her all the best. Maybe she will skate her way to bronze - or even Silver if Mao falls down.
Since Mirai is the better skater and will be around for the next few years I do hope Rachael does her best. She is NOT my favorite skater but I certainly think she is a nice girl. It would be kinda sweet if she ended her competitive career with a World medal.

Also, in Vancouver, Johnny was such a Plushenko sucker, no pun intented, but here, he is saying Evan deserved his win. Johnny shifts his positions quicker than babies changing their diapers.

[FlattFan]

Well her 3f-3t is solid and she's consistent but her spins, flexibility, speed, and presence on the ice don't compare to Mirai's, her basic skating and edge quality is nowhere near that of Laura, and she doesn't get as much height in her jumps as Miki. All four of these skaters are fairly comparable, but I don't agree that Rachael is absolutely better than the other three. She can do difficult jumps, yes, but the jumps themselves aren't actually that impressive and she's a bit slow and sloppy in her spins/presentation. That's just how I see it. If they were all at their best, I would rank Rachael last among the 4, but Rachael rarely makes mistakes so if the others do and she is clean, then sure she should be ahead, but you're forgetting that Mirai and Miki skated clean LPs at the Olympics and Laura only doubled one jump.

Miki was slow. Her jumps were low at the Olympics.
Mirai interpretation was pretty bad. When I watched her doing Carmen, it's about as bad as the Zhangs doing Scheherazade. Her step sequence in both SP and LP were a lot more simpler compare to Rachael's.
Laura had skating skill, but that was that.

Base on what they did at the Olympics, I would put Rachael in front.

If they were all at their absolute best, I would put Rachael behind Miki and Mirai and in front of Laura. Remember, at the Olympics Rachael was at her best, the other 3 weren't.

[Poodlepal]

Re: Patrick and his edges
When I said my original quote about Patrick's DEEEP edges, I was mocking a little on Paul Wylie, who was carrying on and on about them. I have no doubt that Patrick is the skater's skater, with his superior edges and transitions. Good for him. No doubt he'll get many medals in years to come. He is pretty to look at when he is clean. Actually, although I'm making fun of him, I liked his skate better than Daisuke's this time around. If he's clean, they can reward his edges as much as they want, I won't complain.

The problem is: figure skating is failing as a spectator sport when things deep edges, underrotations or flutzing, (which mean little to non-skaters or seriously avid fans)seem to count more than jumping and falling. If two people skate clean, and the one with the deeper edges gets the nod, OK. But when someone like Chan, who messed up noticeably in Vancouver is put ahead of someone like Johnny who skated clean (to the naked eye), or ahead of Brian here, who did a harder jump in a TECHNICAL portion of the contest, many people will get mad. They will question the judging system, and they will eventually stop watching. And I think that's why people get so annoyed with Patrick. He's not doing anything wrong, but he's benefiting from flaws in the judging system.

[silverlake22]

Miki was slow. Her jumps were low at the Olympics.
Mirai interpretation was pretty bad. When I watched her doing Carmen, it's about as bad as the Zhangs doing Scheherazade. Her step sequence in both SP and LP were a lot more simpler compare to Rachael's.
Laura had skating skill, but that was that.

Base on what they did at the Olympics, I would put Rachael in front.

If they were all at their absolute best, I would put Rachael behind Miki and Mirai and in front of Laura. Remember, at the Olympics Rachael was at her best, the other 3 weren't.

Yeah well Mirai, Laura, and Miki are all beautiful while Rachael is just cute and while that shouldn't make a difference in the scores....it probably does.