MENS LP and the Results | Page 38 | Golden Skate

MENS LP and the Results

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
What Abbott has to do is what every skater has to do and that is not to worry about winning and to go out there and skate your best Do not do anything 'iffy'. As we say in Bridge, bid your strongest suit. If he is extremely nervous of the crowd, he must check out a sports psychologist. it may work.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I'm so glad to hear that everyone cheered Daisuke. He truly seems like one of those skaters who belongs to the world; he transcends national followings. May he stay healthy and strong for a long time to come!

Yeah, I actually can't remember anyone ever saying they hate Takahashi.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
BUT, Patrick didn't deserve to finish ahead of Kozuka for example at the Olympics. And okay I get that Chan is a world silver medalist and all. But Patrick was getting a lot of really big scores at competitions, before he was a world silver medalist. I mean look at his Skate Canada 2008 win. He did some really not so great technical content but got HUGE PCS. Or his beating Kozuka in the free in Paris in 2008 due to huge PCS. And yes Patrick has more transitions and is a great basic skater. But its not like Kozuka is horrible at these issues. And Kozuka did a LOT more jump wise at that competition. Or Patrick's HUGE scores at Four Continents. Way higher PCS than Evan and TES that were huge as well and Evan did more technical content. I didn't disagree with Patrick's win at Four Continents-but the scores? Meh. Meh. Meh.

From my perspective, I think you need to be able to justify why you feel Kozuka should have placed ahead of Chan in the Olympic before making a claim re: overscoring. All I can see is your claim but no reasoning or quantifiable justification to support your claim. It is difficult to respond without knowing what's the basis of your complaint. My take is the results in Vancouver was fair and square among the Top 10, I was in Vancouver myself. In fact, at Icenetwork, I outlined my scorecoard for Chan's Free Skate. His TES was justified in my view since I arrived to pretty similar numbers as the panel's average, hence I see no valid claim as to how he could be placed below Kozuka, you are welcome to show me how you get to such conclusion, quantiatively however. Let's start with that before going on and on about 10 other competitions, one thing at a time.

Yes Yu-na Kim gets high scores. But she wasn't winning competitions do to HUGE PCS gaps until she had already established herself as a consistent competitor technically first. And that's what makes people annoyed with Patrick because its just not the case with Chan.

Now, I don't think that's true at all. At his first Worlds, Patrick Chan finished 9th. At his first GPF, he finished dead last whereas Mao Asada immediately won her first GPF. He paid his dues all right. By the time he won his first world medal, he is actually older than Kim when she won her first medal. Since both Kim and Chan have been skating for the last 10 years or so, it seems to me your claim that Chan is getting a short-cut preference vs. other skaters is just baseless. If your claim is true, then Chan should have won his first World medal at a younger age than Yu-Na Kim or say Mao Asada. But that's not the case. I think you really need to re-examine your bias against this skater, it's obviously coloring your reasoning.

And then there's the whole; he's an all around skater talk when the boy doesn't even have a consistent triple axel. And him saying someday skaters will be more like me! Well I say to myself I hope to God that future skaters will have a consistent triple axel. And I think thats the main thing. The words that come out of Chan's mouth don't endear him to the public.

He is super popular in Canada and largely considered a candid and well liked role model. His image is everywhere from McDonalds to cereal boxes. He is very endearing in his home country and also in the country of his parents, notably in China. The Chinese media constantly refer to him by his Chinese name and in an endearing manner, it's obvious they are proud of him being Chinese. As for consistency on the Triple Axel, look, he just turned 19. Please name me another male skater aside from Plushenko who accomplished as much as he did when they were his age. Note, Michal Brezina is in fact older than Patrick Chan, so is Adam Rippon. I think your expectation is both unfair and unrealistic. He is pretty consistent on those Triple Axels and overall, a very solid jumper. That's where most of his GOE come from - the quality of his superior jumps. When he lands his jumps, he picks up large amount of GOE in similar way that Yu-Na Kim does because they tend to be of high quality in execution - solid technique, no edge call, excellent flow in/out, soft landing, good height and yes, insanely difficult transitions into most of those jumps. That's why he gather high GOE for his jumps, they weren't free gifts, he earned them by pushing the boundaries of figure skating - sometimes, at his own detriment like yesterday, when he fell on that Triple Loop because the entry was just insane. You make it sound as though those were given to him for free but that is just not the case. Yet, you keep saying you acknowledge he does beautiful and difficult transitions yet simultaneously failed to realize that's why he gets those GOE. To me, your problem is you are unable to quantify what skaters do on ice. I think you really need to take out a piece of paper, mark each element you see from the skaters you watch and act like a judge and actually award GOE, element by element. Then, you'll appreciate where the judges are coming from.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
What I would like to know is, if Joubert had not fallen on the triple lutz, would the judges still have placed him behind Patrick Chan? If Joubert were to skate a clean program with no mistakes and 2 quads, would he still place behind a flawed Chan program?

If Joubert landed his Lutz, it would be very close, so more like a toss up. If Joubert were totally mistake free, he would have beaten Chan.
 

figuristka

Medalist
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
Thanks seniorita for your comments after watching live. I feel they are very good observations, especially about Patrick Chan.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
If Joubert landed his Lutz, it would be very close, so more like a toss up. If Joubert were totally mistake free, he would have beaten Chan.

I suspect that the judges would still try to fix the results so that Chan would place ahead even if Joubert skated clean and Chan did not.

Having said that, Joubert needs to realize that he can't miss the lutz anymore - because the moment he does, the judges will be waiting to use it against him. I think they wanted to place Chan ahead of him, and by doing 2 quads but falling on the lutz it gave the judges what they were looking for.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I suspect that the judges would still try to fix the results so that Chan would place ahead even if Joubert skated clean and Chan did not.

Having said that, Joubert needs to realize that he can't miss the lutz anymore - because the moment he does, the judges will be waiting to use it against him. I think they wanted to place Chan ahead of him, and by doing 2 quads but falling on the lutz it gave the judges what they were looking for.

List of Joubert's errors in the LP:

- Hard landing on the second Quad Toe, scratchy landing: 0 or -1 GOE
- Wobbly landing the Triple Axel: 0 or - 1 GOE
- Triple Lutz, fall: -3 GOE
- Triple Flip, major edge call "e" + touch down on landing: -2 or -3 GOE
- Triple Loop, turn out no foot down: -1 or -2 GOE
- Change Foot Combination Spin, cut short, downgraded to Level 1 and 0 GOE
- Straight Line Step Sequence, downgraded to Level 2

Considering the large number of errors Joubert actually made, some of them, very serious errors, it's amazing that he placed 4th in the Free Skate. In fact, his PCS held him up, he could have been a lot lower based on his TES, which is only the 9th highest of the competition. On the basis of his TES alone, any claim that Joubert is robbed is quite suspect. How do you justify the 9th place TES should end up on the podium is beyond most people's sense of fairness.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
List of Joubert's errors in the LP:

- Hard landing on the second Quad Toe, scratchy landing: 0 or -1 GOE
- Wobbly landing the Triple Axel: 0 or - 1 GOE
- Triple Lutz, fall: -3 GOE
- Triple Flip, major edge call "e" + touch down on landing: -2 or -3 GOE
- Triple Loop, turn out no foot down: -1 or -2 GOE
- Change Foot Combination Spin, cut short, downgraded to Level 1 and 0 GOE
- Straight Line Step Sequence, downgraded to Level 2

Considering the large number of errors Joubert actually made, some of them, very serious errors, it's amazing that he placed 4th in the Free Skate. In fact, his PCS held him up, he could have been a lot lower based on his TES, which is only the 9th highest of the competition. On the basis of his TES alone, any claim that Joubert is robbed is quite suspect. How do you justify the 9th place TES should end up on the podium is beyond most people's sense of fairness.

Joubert was undermarked in the TES and overmarked in the PCS. Chan was overmarked in both the TES and the PCS. I don't agree with all of those elements above being considered errors by Joubert. The only major error was the fall on the Lutz. There certainly wasn't anything majorly wrong with the landing of the second quad, and of course the main point to remember is that at least he did it (two of them). Chan didn't even bother.

Chan made several errors too, so those should be listed as well.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
List of Joubert's errors in the LP:

- Hard landing on the second Quad Toe, scratchy landing: 0 or -1 GOE
- Wobbly landing the Triple Axel: 0 or - 1 GOE
- Triple Lutz, fall: -3 GOE
- Triple Flip, major edge call "e" + touch down on landing: -2 or -3 GOE
- Triple Loop, turn out no foot down: -1 or -2 GOE
- Change Foot Combination Spin, cut short, downgraded to Level 1 and 0 GOE
- Straight Line Step Sequence, downgraded to Level 2

Considering the large number of errors Joubert actually made, some of them, very serious errors, it's amazing that he placed 4th in the Free Skate. In fact, his PCS held him up, he could have been a lot lower based on his TES, which is only the 9th highest of the competition. On the basis of his TES alone, any claim that Joubert is robbed is quite suspect. How do you justify the 9th place TES should end up on the podium is beyond most people's sense of fairness.

Thanks for your post and analysis Wally.
Joubert has very loyal fans - but they don't want to consider his mistakes.
Without such high pcs Joubert would have not made the podium.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Joubert was undermarked in the TES and overmarked in the PCS. Chan was overmarked in both the TES and the PCS. I don't agree with all of those elements above being considered errors by Joubert. The only major error was the fall on the Lutz. There certainly wasn't anything majorly wrong with the landing of the second quad, and of course the main point to remember is that at least he did it (two of them). Chan didn't even bother.

Chan made several errors too, so those should be listed as well.

It really doesn't matter whether you agree or not. It is what it is. Look up the protocol sheet. Getting downgraded to Level 1 on the Spin is most definitely a major error. Same thing happened to Yu-Na Kim's Spiral today or how you think she found herself in 7th now? For you to claim this is not a major error is frankly, ignorant to say the least. Loss positive GOE opportunity can be just as costly, even if the element is not bad enough to be negative because your competitior could be earning positive GOE for using the same jumping pass slot, that would be a + for them against you. Like I said before, if you want to complain about something, you need to do more than just making a claim but also explain the WHY. Otherwise, it just comes across as whining.
 

Ryan O

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
Canada
Thanks for your post and analysis Wally.
Joubert has very loyal fans - but they don't want to consider his mistakes.
Without such high pcs Joubert would have not made the podium.

True. But the same can be said of Patrick Chan.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Thanks for your post and analysis Wally.
Joubert has very loyal fans - but they don't want to consider his mistakes.
Without such high pcs Joubert would have not made the podium.

I know, how can anyone completely ignore a major edge call, the "e" designation given by the technical panel, and claim it's not a major error, that person must be wiling to point at pig and insist it's a horse I guess. The major edge call not only is a major error with negative GOE up to -3, it's also one of those calls where the judges would be required to give a negative GOE without the liberty to do any otherwise. It's almost as bad as a fall. Anyway, it is what it is. I just call it as I see it.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
True. But the same can be said of Patrick Chan.

uh...Patrick Chan has the second highest TES among the Top 10 skaters, only behind Takahashi. So without PCS, he still would have been 2nd. How about checking your facts before making yet another unsupported and easily disproved claim?
 

BigJohn

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
What I would like to know is, if Joubert had not fallen on the triple lutz, would the judges still have placed him behind Patrick Chan? If Joubert were to skate a clean program with no mistakes and 2 quads, would he still place behind a flawed Chan program?

I sure hope so.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Joubert would be ahead of Chan if he had done a good Lutz instead of falling. He lost to Chan by 5.5 points, which is amount of extra points he would have gotten for landing a Lutz with average GOE of +1.5 instead of falling (plus his PCS would have been a bit higher).
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Joubert would be ahead of Chan if he had done a good Lutz instead of falling. He lost to Chan by 5.5 points, which is amount of extra points he would have gotten for landing a Lutz with average GOE of +1.5 instead of falling (plus his PCS would have been a bit higher).

It's possible but far from certain, hence my toss-up comment earlier.
 

Sk8n Mama

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
He is super popular in Canada and largely considered a candid and well liked role model. His image is everywhere from McDonalds to cereal boxes. He is very endearing in his home country and also in the country of his parents, notably in China. The Chinese media constantly refer to him by his Chinese name and in an endearing manner, it's obvious they are proud of him being Chinese. As for consistency on the Triple Axel, look, he just turned 19. Please name me another male skater aside from Plushenko who accomplished as much as he did when they were his age. Note, Michal Brezina is in fact older than Patrick Chan, so is Adam Rippon. I think your expectation is both unfair and unrealistic. He is pretty consistent on those Triple Axels and overall, a very solid jumper. That's where most of his GOE come from - the quality of his superior jumps. When he lands his jumps, he picks up large amount of GOE in similar way that Yu-Na Kim does because they tend to be of high quality in execution - solid technique, no edge call, excellent flow in/out, soft landing, good height and yes, insanely difficult transitions into most of those jumps. That's why he gather high GOE for his jumps, they weren't free gifts, he earned them by pushing the boundaries of figure skating - sometimes, at his own detriment like yesterday, when he fell on that Triple Loop because the entry was just insane. You make it sound as though those were given to him for free but that is just not the case. Yet, you keep saying you acknowledge he does beautiful and difficult transitions yet simultaneously failed to realize that's why he gets those GOE. To me, your problem is you are unable to quantify what skaters do on ice. I think you really need to take out a piece of paper, mark each element you see from the skaters you watch and act like a judge and actually award GOE, element by element. Then, you'll appreciate where the judges are coming from.

Thank-you!
 

Smuusik

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Finally, the possibility to use the Internet... network companies.
During the men's free skate I was busy writing a last minute article for the local newspaper and had to put it aside for a while to make notes on the men's performances.
I am positively surprised that the evening turned out to be far more interesting than I had dared to hope :)

Schultheiss:

From the start I have loved his choice of "topics" when it comes to building up a program. Also the music. Sorry. It's just so funny and yet great :biggrin:
It was clear just how focused he actually was on skating a technically clean program. And his efforts were rewarded. Love the way he goes into the performance, the emotions - the best of any sport really.
I have seen more energetic performances by him but at the moment I cannot really criticize him for the lack of it this time in Torino. The presentation can surely be made better but whole in whole he is a rising star of Scandinavian figure skating. If only he'd be able to continue for many years to come (knocks on the wood). Of all the young skaters I find him most interesting to watch at the moment.

Van der Perren:

What a finish for his career. Wow! 4-3-3, really, really nice. Don't remember the last time I saw it on ice. Also I am glad to see the "higher, faster, stronger" devise proven to be possible in fs. The last seasons have been slightly underwhelming. Van der Perren's combination was probably one of the biggest surprises of the evening.

And it seems that success comes in pairs: his wife skated really, really well yesterday.

What really annoyed me, though, were the comments made by our "professional" figure skating commentators. They were more than willing to hand out the trophy of "first 4-3-3" in the history of figure skating. I mean, please, get your facts RIGHT! They have done a lot worse though. You'd have to hear what sort of things estonian sports commentators are coming up with. So tragic that I cannot stop laughing sometimes :banging:

Kozuka:

You know, it seems to me, that the Japanese men have chosen the music of their LP this year so that they can either skate beautifully and win beautifully or skate horribly and still lose beautifully...
The melody... oh the melody.
The performances touch you, they truly do and I have come to love their skating more than anything where the emotions are concerned.

Chan:

What!? Just what is going on with the judging?
At first I had a feeling like they are slowly but surely pushing towards awarding Chan the gold, no matter what.
I'm sorry, I just cannot see him as the "wonder-child" he is made out to be. His programs may be skated as neatly as possible where the transitions and all the little details are concerned but he is so far from being flawless that I feel seriously puzzled at the marks he receives every time he falls on ice or does all the little mistakes he shouldn't be doing if he really is as good as everybody is saying.
Yes, I am also probably biased. Shoot me.


Joubert:

Go Joubert!
Wonderful recovery from the horrors of not-so-far-past. Amazing start for the lp. I basically jumped out of the armchair after he landed his second quad and then the fall...
Nevermind. The rest of the program - two thumbs up. I am truly happy for him! After the nightmare of the Olympics and Euros, this should give him some peace of mind at least.
But the judging needs to be flushed down the toilet, really. You cannot compare Joubert and Chan, you really can't. Both have their weaknesses and strengths but all in all I believe the difficult elements should receive higher recognition.

Brezina:

Damn, I like this guy.
Nerves of steel. Consistency. Clean and impressive technique. Jumping ability. Will definetly improve as far as presentation is concerned but the emotion is there. My bets on him for the future. The next possible star from Europe with a real chance to succeed big-time.

Also, nice to see the judges finally rewarding him for his consistency. Superb, Brezina! Love it!

Takahashi:

And here is our winner. Highly deserved. Congratulations!
I was mesmerized by his short program and even more so after he went for the quad in free. The footwork is incredible, the best of the evening without doubt. The same goes for artistry and pure energy he brought out on ice.

My respect to him, since I do know how difficult it is to come back after a knee injury (and since it is figure skating and not track-and-field or so, it is even harder).

The right man won but I'd really, really like to re-arrange the top five.
 
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