MENS LP and the Results

bekalc said:

While Patrick has very good edges and transitions/in between elements, he's not exactly the best skater in everything that the Canadians make him out to be. The things he does well would be very easy for the judges to ignore if he came from a less powerful federation. Look at how S/S have gotten treated this year. As soon as a team from a powerful federation came along that could come close to them and the Russians got better.

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And just which male skater do you feel is the best in everything, if such skater actually exists or existed? I can tell you with absolute certainty such skater doesn't exist or existed whether it's male or female. Is Yu-Na Kim the best in everything, nope, not even close. There have been female skaters who are either better jumper, spinner or quicker on their feet than Yu-Na Kim ever did. Jumps = Midori Ito. Spins = Lucinda Ruth Footwork, SS and Transitions = Yuka Sato. See, Kim is not even the all-time best in any of the category but that doesn't mean she is a bad skater or that she doesn't deserve what she has accomplished. What you have done is you asked the impossible and that demand that Chan meets such impossible standard whilel simultaneously inflated Kim as though she is perfect, which she isn't and nobody is anyway. The S/S example is quite untrue. Pang/Tong were competing last year and they haven't changed country as far as I am concerned, your whole argument almost sounds as though the nation of China was in hiding last year and only came out of hiding this year. Seriously, that's totally baseless. S/S's troubles stem from their inability to stay on their feet. They made tons of errors this year, whether it's bombing the LP in TEB or average of one fall per competition, if not more. Their mistakes were quite glaring this year whereas they were mostly clena last year. That's why they struggle, not because China suddenly emerged politically, that's totally BS - China has been a powerhouse in Pairs skating for years.

bekalc said:

And the Korean federation certainly has more power than lets say the German federation. Considering the HUGE amounts of revenue the tv rights bring. And the fact that the Koreans dominate short track skating.

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Sorry, this is again pure speculation on your part. German economy is at least 3~4 times the size of Korea and the German market is much larger and the EU's biggest economy. While the Koreans' enthusiasm about an elite athlete is trully impressive, Germany has always been a powerhouse when it comes to sports. They consistently rank among top 3 in both Winter and Summer Olympics in both medal counts and gold medals. The Germans invested a huge amount of federal money in their sports associations and Germany has a much longer history and infrastrcutre in palce as far as figure skating is concerned. As far as skating is concerned, short track and figure skating, while all governed by ISU - the two sports don't mix or else we could also claim the Netherlands is a powerful skating nation in figure skating on the basis of short track using your poorly constrcuted logic - but the fact is, Netherlands is absolutely nobody in figure skating, they didn't even send anyone to these World Championships and they have no ISU judges on their roster - they have absolutely nothing. Yet, in short track, Netherlands is absolutely powerhouse, on par with South Korea. If Yu-Na Kim were to retire tomorrow, Korea would soon forget about figure skating but if S/S were to retire, Germany will continue to produce figure skaters and the country won't be any more or less enthusiastic about this sport because of one person or team. Who do you think the ISU Figure Skating would care more in this case, an established country who has one of the largest membership of skaters in Europe or a country whose enthusiasm in figure skating is soley dependent on one individual? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

bekalc said:

I'm not saying Patrick doesn't do somethings incredibly well because he truly does. His edges and skating skills, and ability to do hard transitions in between jumps is to die for. But he's not the most wonderful artist on ice right now-he could like Kozuka work on reaching the audience more (for one thing) and more expression. While his blades are great, I don't think he's the best at really expressioning the music with his whole body (including face) like Daisuke/Lambiel. And Patrick's jumps aren't exactly the best of the men, and while he's a good spinner, I think Kozuka is better. I'm just tired of hearing from Canadians that Patrick is the beeesst at everything else. I'm sorry I just don't agree. And Patrick is done no favors when he's told this.

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That's your opinion and I won't try to argue with you since this is your personal viewpoint. Keep in mind though, many people don't share your viewpoint and clearly the judges disagreed so it is what is. But I also think it's unfair for you to insist that politics is the main reason why Patrick Chan is where he is simply because you disagreed with the results. You can disagree with the results but it's unfair for you to try to erase an athlete's accomplishment by claiming it's all due to his powerful federation without any evidence to back up your claim yet plenty of evidences indicating otherwise. Just think about it, how would you feel if someone insists that Yu-Na Kim got to where she is because of Korean money and then proceed to say she isn't the best in everything?

wallylutz said:

In case you forgot, let me refresh your memory, Jeff Buttle actually won the 2008 Worlds as Canada's #2 man, not #1. Guess who was the Canadian Champion? You got it! The guy who has been bashed by you and a ton of people without good cause in this thread and who happened to be the youngest skater still among Top 10 at the Worlds this year. Your whole argument that if Chan had been #2 in Canada, he wouldn't have done as well just doesn't make any sense given Buttle just proved you can win the World handily by being the number 2 in your own country or for that matter, Evan won the World as the #3 in the U.S. and won the Olympic as the #2 US skater. Just give up on that baseless argument, will you please? These skaters acheived what they have accomplished on their own merits, not because they have a powerful federation or a weak one, for that matter. Do you think the Czechs are considered powerful skating federation? And why would Brezina suddenly move from a nobody to 4th in the World all of sudden? Why would a powerful federation like Russia failed to even qualify 2 spots for next year given that Voronov used to be the Russian Champion prior to Plushenko's return and even placed Top 10 in the Worlds before?

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First of all, what do you want from these posters? You want them to just say "OH...we were totally wrong! Patrick Chan is an amazing skater and he is the next coming of Christ as far as figure skating is concerned!" People have brought up valid crticism after criticism against this guy and you just take them as them "bashing him." There was only one poster that actually said some out of line comments, I think everyone else have spent a lot of good time outlining their opinion. And likewise they took the time to read your posts (which I appreciated, by the way).

And politicking in skating has existed as long as the dinosaurs. Phil Hersh had a story (I can't find it; will link as soon as possible) about how Frank Carroll was actually upset at U.S. Nationals when --god forbid-- that the judges gave Evan 7's in his PCS scores for his SP. Carroll was quoted as saying that other federations were giving their skaters high scores to send a message to the Olympic judges. It was clear it was in direct reference to Patrick Chan's 90 SP at Canadian Nationals, which was being held at the same time.

Politicking doesn't always work, of course, if the skater federations politick for do not so great. But to say it totally doesn't exist is a bit naive.

ETA: Carroll's comment was probably also in reference to Russia giving Plush 100+! in his SP at Russian Nationals.

bekalc said:

Well you have to actually be a good skater too. The Russians don't have a good male skater. And while Patrick may have won the Canadian national championsihp, he didn't have the same standing with the international judges that Jeff had-not by a longshot.

And well Brezina is European, and its not like there are that many top European male skaters right now. Brezina was fourth at Europeans this year in a stacked field. He came very close to making the GPF this year (with tough GP spots too), and had a good showing at the Olympics. And it helps when you can jump like THAT. He's been establishing himself as an up and coming skater for awhile.

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Voronov is pretty good skater, he even landed a clean Quad in Torino in both his SP and LP. You think he is not a good skater? I think he is very good skater. Too bad, Russia, arguably, the most powerful figure skating federation of all can't somehow political him to Top 10 as you suggest powerful federations can do.

One last thought:
Look PChiddy is only 19. He's got time on his side. If the worse he gets is two silver medals and a bunch of critical posts on a message board, I think he (and his fans) can sleep well at night. It will be a good four years seeing who will rock the house and I have no doubt that PChiddy will figure out his triple axel thing and then become unbeatable. And if he get's the performance bug of Dice-K...then goodness!!!!!!!! that would be awesome.

Enjoy reading the debate, folks.

wallylutz said:

Voronov is pretty good skater, he even landed a clean Quad in Torino in both his SP and LP. You think he is not a good skater? I think he is very good skater. Too bad, Russia, arguably, the most powerful figure skating federation of all can't somehow political him to Top 10 as you suggest powerful federations can do.

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Thank heavens for wallylutz and his well-informed responses! Honestly, I can't figure out why there is such vehement hatred of Patrick on this board! I guess people are entitled to their opinions, even when they are sometimes based on pretty flimsy premises. I'm Canadian and, sure, Patrick is well loved here, but isn't every athelete in their own country? I don't think that's so wrong. I want to learn more about skating and hear reasonable and informed viewpoints on skaters. But I'm so disappointed about the bashing, which just skews and confuses everything! I'm sure Patrick -- like everyone else -- has areas he can improve on. No one -- not even Canadians! -- will deny that. But just saying you hate him or that he should shut up or that anything he does is bad and undeserving or that he's somehow "chosen" and favoured by the entire world of judges -- that is not just convincing. Is there no room for constructive and civil criticism, for every skater? Anyhow -- I think I will abandon this board and read less hateful discussion elsewhere. But I will miss wallylutz's great analysis!

Mrs. P said:

People have brought up valid crticism after criticism against this guy and you just take them as them "bashing him." There was only one poster that actually said some out of line comments, I think everyone else have spent a lot of good time outlining their opinion. And likewise they took the time to read your posts (which I appreciated, by the way).

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Only one poster? Seriously, do you want to bet on that? I can find in this thread alone at least 10 people who used inappropriate language - not constructive criticism as you claimed, to describe Chan and many of those comments not related to his skating whatsoever. In fact, what I noticed a lot and like I asked you earlier, is that if you can please outline your actual arguments, which you still haven't done so. All I hear is X or Y is bad or robbed or outrageous overscored, not limited to just Chan. Such generic comment is not deem constructive, they are bashing because they offer unsupported statements that serve no other purpose but to put down the skaters in question. Frankly, when someone on this forum invited me to come cover from Icenetwork, I reluctanctly agreed to pay a visit but to be honest, I am shell shocked by the animosity that many people displayed here towards many skaters, not limited to just Chan. In just two days, I had to put three posters on ignore. I think you need to revise what's deem a constructive criticism because I think your definition doesn't resemble anything I am familiar with. Claiming that a skater is consistently overmarked and he is the pet of the judges is not constructive criticism. Do you want to count how many people refered to Patrick Chan as the judges' pet and the judges will drop him as soon as they found a new one in this thread alone? This reference is extremely disrespectful and can be implied to mean something else entirely and not a good one.

I am still waiting for your "constructive criticism" that you still haven't outlined yet. But if you don't feel you can do it, that's fine too. I won't think any less of you, we are all entitled to our opinions whether we can justify it or not. I feel compelled however to defend Chan, not because I am rooting for him but because I am shell shocked at how people here bashed him like he just raped somebody. Clearly, I am also not alone to think he has been bashed here.

Mrs. P said:

One last thought:
Look PChiddy is only 19. He's got time on his side. If the worse he gets is two silver medals and a bunch of critical posts on a message board, I think he (and his fans) can sleep well at night. It will be a good four years seeing who will rock the house and I have no doubt that PChiddy will figure out his triple axel thing and then become unbeatable. And if he get's the performance bug of Dice-K...then goodness!!!!!!!! that would be awesome.

Enjoy reading the debate, folks.

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With all due respect, the skater's name is Patrick Chan, not PChiddy. He is 19 year old, an adult, he doesn't need pet name or cute name that is used to diminish him or anything with pejorative meaning. Same thing goes for all skaters. Frankly, the amount of these silly pet names here for various skaters isn't even funny. It's disrespectful if not downright rude and it also hurts the credibility of whoever who used it. If this is your version of "constructive criticism", I have to say this is something I can't learn from you.

wallylutz said:

With all due respect, the skater's name is Patrick Chan, not PChiddy. He is 19 year old, an adult, he doesn't need pet name or cute name that is used to diminish him or anything with pejorative meaning. Same thing goes for all skaters. Frankly, the amount of these silly pet names here for various skaters isn't even funny. It's disrespectful if not downright rude and it also hurts the credibility of whoever who used it. If this is your version of "constructive criticism", I have to say this is something I can't learn from you.

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I guess Patrick "diminishes" and "disrespects" himself then because if you've ever taken a look at his official Twitter page, his handle/nickname for himself is PChiddy. Link: http://twitter.com/pchiddy

wallylutz said:

With all due respect, the skater's name is Patrick Chan, not PChiddy. He is 19 year old, an adult, he doesn't need pet name or cute name that is used to diminish him or anything with pejorative meaning. Same thing goes for all skaters. Frankly, the amount of these silly pet names here for various skaters isn't even funny. It's disrespectful if not downright rude and it also hurts the credibility of whoever who used it. If this is your version of "constructive criticism", I have to say this is something I can't learn from you.

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I feel so bad you're starting to be really upset by the posters! PChiddy is actually Patrick's twitter name, so I think Mrs. P probably meant no disrespect by that. But I share your frustration and feel that many previous posts were intentionally hurtful and disrespectful. However, it's probably not worth being upset by them, right? Anyhow, I'm sure many also appreciate your interventions. Please rest well and stay well!

wallylutz said:

Only one poster? Seriously, do you want to bet on that? I can find in this thread alone at least 10 people who used inappropriate language - not constructive criticism as you claimed, to describe Chan and many of those comments not related to his skating whatsoever. In fact, what I noticed a lot and like I asked you earlier, is that if you can please outline your actual arguments, which you still haven't done so. All I hear is X or Y is bad or robbed or outrageous overscored, not limited to just Chan. Such generic comment is not deem constructive, they are bashing because they offer unsupported statements that serve no other purpose but to put down the skaters in question. Frankly, when someone on this forum invited me to come cover from Icenetwork, I reluctanctly agreed to pay a visit but to be honest, I am shell shocked by the animosity that many people displayed here towards many skaters, not limited to just Chan. In just two days, I had to put three posters on ignore. I think you need to revise what's deem a constructive criticism because I think your definition doesn't resemble anything I am familiar with. Claiming that a skater is consistently overmarked and he is the pet of the judges is not constructive criticism. Do you want to count how many people refered to Patrick Chan as the judges' pet and the judges will drop him as soon as they found a new one in this thread alone? This reference is extremely disrespectful and can be implied to mean something else entirely and not a good one.

I am still waiting for your "constructive criticism" that you still haven't outlined yet. But if you don't feel you can do it, that's fine too. I won't think any less of you, we are all entitled to our opinions whether we can justify it or not. I feel compelled however to defend Chan, not because I am rooting for him but because I am shell shocked at how people here bashed him like he just raped somebody. Clearly, I am also not alone to think he has been bashed here.

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This is why I refer to posters, not to me. I am well aware that I have not brought up any specfic topics. But honestly, I didn't want to because I felt other posters already mentioned all of the crticism I have about in Chan in this thread. Why repeat it? You've already taken the time to respond to those posters, so I'm not going to make you say the same thing again to me. Maybe that makes me a bad discussion board poster, but honestly I believe in leaving well enough alone. Most of my activity has been reading posts, as opposed to responding.

But I do feel you're lumping some folks (like Becklc) who did provide what you wanted into this "haters pool." Becklc and some other folks have given you specfic things they didn't like or why he felt they were overscored. I agree that some of the comments were uncalled for, but I think that people have made some really good points in here too. And several posters certainly appreciated your posts and your knowledge, so doesn't that make it good somehow?

Yes, people on these boards can be really nasty. I won't forget when Vic Evora just freaked out when he saw all the really crappy posts about his daugher and her partner. But I think also that people can get really heated and say things that seem illogical or inappropriate. We have really great mods on here (mathman, Doris, Tonichelle!) who will make sure that things don't get out of hand. And I think you will fine that most of the people on this board are actually great people who bring a lot of interesting discussion to the mix.

wallylutz said:

Voronov is pretty good skater, he even landed a clean Quad in Torino in both his SP and LP. You think he is not a good skater? I think he is very good skater. Too bad, Russia, arguably, the most powerful figure skating federation of all can't somehow political him to Top 10 as you suggest powerful federations can do.

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Where did I say Chan was just a "pretty good skater?" I don't think I ever said that. I think Chan's a fine skater. He's the best young skater around right now. But at times many of us feel Patrick gets scores that he doesn't deserve. For example I don't have so much of a problem with his silver medal here. I agree he's better than Brezina now, and Joubert had his issues too.

BUT, Patrick didn't deserve to finish ahead of Kozuka for example at the Olympics. And okay I get that Chan is a world silver medalist and all. But Patrick was getting a lot of really big scores at competitions, before he was a world silver medalist. I mean look at his Skate Canada 2008 win. He did some really not so great technical content but got HUGE PCS. Or his beating Kozuka in the free in Paris in 2008 due to huge PCS. And yes Patrick has more transitions and is a great basic skater. But its not like Kozuka is horrible at these issues. And Kozuka did a LOT more jump wise at that competition. Or Patrick's HUGE scores at Four Continents. Way higher PCS than Evan and TES that were huge as well and Evan did more technical content. I didn't disagree with Patrick's win at Four Continents-but the scores? Meh. Meh. Meh.

Yes Yu-na Kim gets high scores. But she wasn't winning competitions do to HUGE PCS gaps until she had already established herself as a consistent competitor technically first. And that's what makes people annoyed with Patrick because its just not the case with Chan.

And then there's the whole; he's an all around skater talk when the boy doesn't even have a consistent triple axel. And him saying someday skaters will be more like me! Well I say to myself I hope to God that future skaters will have a consistent triple axel. And I think thats the main thing. The words that come out of Chan's mouth don't endear him to the public.

And as for me saying he's not the best at everything. I'm just saying he's not that because thats what a lot of the Chan hype is saying about him, and I'm tired of it. He's a very good skater. And I think if his jumps continue to improve and his artistry/performance levels improve he could totally dominate. But I'm sick of the hype. And the huge scores-no matter what he does. Clearly jumps need to be more rewarded in this system.

Ah, twitter, I don't use it. hwell: Thanks for pointing that out, so I'll take that back then. Patrick Chan...still a big kid even though he is an adult already. Kids these days...t's frustrating yet funny at the same time. :sheesh:

wallylutz said:

With all due respect, the skater's name is Patrick Chan, not PChiddy. He is 19 year old, an adult, he doesn't need pet name or cute name that is used to diminish him or anything with pejorative meaning. Same thing goes for all skaters. Frankly, the amount of these silly pet names here for various skaters isn't even funny. It's disrespectful if not downright rude and it also hurts the credibility of whoever who used it. If this is your version of "constructive criticism", I have to say this is something I can't learn from you.

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Uhhh... wow. OK. But as others said here...I was just referring him as he calls himself on Twitter. Personally I think it's a pretty awesome name. Never meant any disrespect. A bunch of the skaters have fun names... D-10 (Denis Ten) Dice-K (Daisuke) Johnny Gaga (Johnny Weir). It's actually kind of homage to these skaters. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise.

It's getting late here in the west coast, I am going to reply to the questions / comments addressed to me sometime tomorrow.

Mrs. P said:

Uhhh... wow. OK. But as others said here...I was just referring him as he calls himself on Twitter. Personally I think it's a pretty awesome name. Never meant any disrespect. A bunch of the skaters have fun names... D-10 (Denis Ten) Dice-K (Daisuke) Johnny Gaga (Johnny Weir). It's actually kind of homage to these skaters. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise.

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Sorry, I already took that back. I apologize for any misunderstanding this may cause.

In fact Wally I think in someways the reaction to Chan is a Kostner affect. Carolina Kostner has a lot of excellent qualities in terms of basic skating that are reasons why the judges give Kostner normally high PCS. But in a lot of cases she'll get these PCS even when she skates messy.

Well it similar with Chan he has things over the other men that DO make him special. But a lot of timse he gets really high scores when he delivers messy performances (not as messy as Kostners but messy) and without delivering some technical content (like triple axels) which is pretty standard for men. And people aren't liking it. It doesn't help that while Chan is an incredible basic skater, his skating doesn't exactly have the balletic quality of John Curry. Nor does he move like Lambiel or Daisuke when it comes to his upper body or perform like them.

I actually do enjoy a lot of aspects of watching Patrick skate but I also love watching Kozuka moves his blades too. And when I see Patrick get these huges scores. And the judges not even giving Kozuka huge scores for Skating skills. (the boy deserves 8s or 9s) I'm sorry I get angry. Chan's better than Kozuka but it would be nice to see Kozuka get credit he deserves.

Ryan O said:

I know. It's just incredible. To give Patrick Chan 160 points for a program like that is ridiculous. When you don't even have a single quad in a program and then make mistakes on other jumps as well, you should not be placing that high. Chan should have finished 3rd.

He is the most overmarked skater of the week - K&S in the pairs event are also up there as the other big beneficiaries of ridiculous judging this week.

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... of the WEEK? He's the most overmarked skater for 1.000.000 years! :boohoo:

What I would like to know is, if Joubert had not fallen on the triple lutz, would the judges still have placed him behind Patrick Chan? If Joubert were to skate a clean program with no mistakes and 2 quads, would he still place behind a flawed Chan program?

All in all this was a kind of splatfest, I enjoyed watching the sp much more. Anyway, Takahashi deserved to win and I´m happy that he did not fall as he tried the quadflip which ended being a triple flip, LOL.

I also really liked Chan´s skating this time, starting to get what the judges are seeing in him...

Abbott, what should one say? Is he a headcase or just peaked too early? Such a huge pity that he performed his best performances of the season at the US Nationals... To me he looked extremely nervous in Turin as he waited for the fs music to start.

Rippon, I really love his skating, will be wonderful to follow his career next season... Great that US managed to win 3 slots for next WC.

Joubert is still getting way too high PCS scores, what is the matter with the judges!!! Anyway, I was glad for his bronze medal.

purplegirl said:

I feel so bad you're starting to be really upset by the posters! PChiddy is actually Patrick's twitter name, so I think Mrs. P probably meant no disrespect by that.

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Since this is a skating forum I sure wish that people would use of the skaters the names under which they are competing at skating competitions and not the ones they are using on some twitter. Sometimes it is hard to even remember the real names of all skaters and it gets really confusing if we will be in a situation where of many skaters also a twitter name is used....

Most of the time people do refer to him as Patrick Chan, but I don't think there's anything wrong with people referring to him by his nickname, since he calls himself that on his own website.