MENS LP and the Results | Page 32 | Golden Skate

MENS LP and the Results

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
It all comes down to a question of math, which is what CoP is about. silverlake22, for some reasons, seems to ignore the 12 other elements when he/she thinks KVDP is underscored vs. Patrick Chan. But when you put them SBS, it's pretty clear why Chan scored much higher TES and it's not all because of his spins and footwork either. Here is a SBS comparion on jumps:

KVDP

4T; 3A; 3Lz; 3F; 3Lo; 3S; 3T X 2;, 2A; 2F => Total Base Value from Jumps = +/- 52.2

Patrick Chan

3A X 2; 3Lz X 2; 3F; 3Lo; 3S; 3T; 2A; 2Lo; 2T X 2 => Total Base Value from Jumps = +/- 55.0

Shocking eh? Not really, it's called math. I found that people who complained the loudest tend not to think or calculate before they complain. Even if we overlook all the spins and step sequences which KVDP sucks big time, Patrick Chan still has higher base value from all his jumps than does KVDP, even though the latter has a Quad and a 4+3+3 combo. For one thing, KVDP doesn't have a second Triple Axel and had only 2 jump combinations even though he could have three and should have taken advantage of the opportunity. Under CoP, it's really hard to argue against TES because this portion of the marks is fairly objective and it is what it is. Even though KVDP had no falls, he did have some mistakes such as the minor edge call (!) on his Triple Lutz and unstable landing on his Triple Salchow, cost him about 1 point per piece on these jumps. You could certain say Patrick Chan's errors were more serious from a GOE standpoint, which is true but factoring the higher Base Value to begin with, it sort of become a wash even at the jump level. Now layering the spins and step sequences on top of everything, no wonder Patrick Chan blew KVDP away in the TES even though the non-jump elements merely count for about 25% of the total TES whereas the jumps count for about 75%.

See, when you put it down on paper, it really isn't hard to see the why and what not. I just wish people would think more before they open their mouth.

Ok, ok point made. I just think the quad should be worth more points and that jumps done in combination should be worth more than just the base values of the jumps added together. Doing a 4t-3t-3t is harder than doing a solo 4t, a solo 3t, and a solo 3t, and yet point wise there is no distinction.
 

Wicked

Final Flight
Joined
May 26, 2009
Jeremy seems to have tear in his eyes. It's official, he's a headcase. Ironically, he peaked too early, at Nationals and then bomb at Oly and world...

To me, Jeremy always looks like he either just cried or is about to cry.
 

watchvancouver

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
ItShocking eh? Not really, it's called math. I found that people who complained the loudest tend not to think or calculate before they complain. .

To believe CoP is some sort of honest and objective math is just idiotic. The Chan defenders are just blowing smoke. Technical controllers can give your element a level 4 when you're judges' pet, and they will downgrade it to 0 if you're no longer HOT. Then you include those goe manipulation. Only the most idiotic and dishonest Chan defenders can convince themselves the value of his 'points'.
 
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wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I don't resent Chan's skating and I don't thing the others that bring up their points do either. My thing is that if everyone is going to fuss at people like Joubert and Plulshy for a lack of artistry, why can't people question some of Chan's skating? As I mentioned earlier, nobody is disputing that Chan has great edging, SS and all that jazz. But there are things that were not so great during his FS today and I think getting nearly 160 for that skate was a little much.

Then I think you should back up your opinion by explaing the why you feel that way and list your points with supporting arguments. Because if you only say: "I feel he is overmarked." It's an unsupported statement. We don't understand where you are coming from and have no way to look into your reasoning and see if it makes sense or not. Someone else made a point about KVDP having 4+3+3 while Chan does not but upon dissection, it's clear that the KVDP being the superior jumper claim is quickly disproved as a myth and therefore, the poster's argument made no logical sense. At least, the poster made his/her point clear so that we can examine its merit at least and it gives that person a chance to re-examine his/her position. That's what a discussion forum is for.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I don't resent Chan's skating and I don't thing the others that bring up their points do either. My thing is that if everyone is going to fuss at people like Joubert and Plulshy for a lack of artistry, why can't people question some of Chan's skating? As I mentioned earlier, nobody is disputing that Chan has great edging, SS and all that jazz. But there are things that were not so great during his FS today and I think getting nearly 160 for that skate was a little much.

I never said Chan was perfect or even clean today.
I said he has some abilites that many of the others dont.
He is not my favorite skater just like Joubert is not my favorite skater either. Of the two I would rather watch Patrick skate - but that is just my preference.

I did not address my post to you but your answer is fine. There is alot of Chan hate going around and the oddest thing is so much of it is from BIG CoP supporters. I would think they would understand how and why Chan gets such favorable scores - but these CoP fans appear to be pretty clueless and full of vinegar too.

Like I said - all Patrick does is go out and skate. Any problems with his scores should be directed at the CoP or judges. Why bash a skater for performing his programs and doing well?
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Ok, ok point made. I just think the quad should be worth more points and that jumps done in combination should be worth more than just the base values of the jumps added together. Doing a 4t-3t-3t is harder than doing a solo 4t, a solo 3t, and a solo 3t, and yet point wise there is no distinction.

That's a valid concern and many people have wonder about that. The rules are the same for everyone though and everyone knows what they need to do to maximize their chance. KVDP not doing a 3rd combination is his own fault for failing to take advantage of the system. So there is no question of bias or judges favored Chan or biased towards him in the TES because that part of the marks is 95% objective. It is what it is. That's how an established skater like Oda could fail to qualify for the FS because the TES is fairly objective and that makes Figure Skating a sport. Without the TES, this may as well become a big show. I feel fairly confident when the outcome of the competition is determined by the TES as they are today knowing that this portion of the marks is very reliable and the rules are the same for everyone.
 

Moxie

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
:laugh:. But no seriously, both of them always seem to make mistakes in the jumps, don't attempt the really difficult jumps (quad for Chan, 3-3 for Cohen), don't have the biggest jumps, but have "artistry" and "presenence" that make up for it. Neither is my cup or tea but I will admit they have some good qualities and are very impressive in some respects.

Wait, seriously? I thought it was a joke. :p
Chan has superior edges and is faster. Sasha is theatrical and bendy and performs whereas Chan always seems disconnected from the audience and from his skate. Admittedly they both have small and usually unstable jumps.
 

Wrlmy

Medalist
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Ok, ok point made. I just think the quad should be worth more points and that jumps done in combination should be worth more than just the base values of the jumps added together. Doing a 4t-3t-3t is harder than doing a solo 4t, a solo 3t, and a solo 3t, and yet point wise there is no distinction.

Yes. But doing a 4t-3t-3t takes up only one jumping pass, so the skater have two more jumping passes to earn more points than a skater who landed a 4t and two seperate 3t. If the skater wastes that opportunity by doing doubles, who is to blame?
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Yes. But doing a 4t-3t-3t takes up only one jumping pass, so the skater have two more jumping passes to earn more points than a skater who landed a 4t and two seperate 3t. If the skater wastes that opportunity by doing doubles, who is to blame?

Or for that matter, like I mentioned earlier, failing to do a 3rd jump combo, like tagging a nice double loop at the end of a triple or add a Double Axel to a lower level Triple, like the Salchow, and get even more points as a sequence from the 2A. KVDP is lucky that he is 9th in the FS, since the judges placed him behind even Kevin Reynolds in the FS and he was actually held up with his PCS even though Reynolds actually beat him in the TES by almost 10 points.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Wait, seriously? I thought it was a joke. :p
Chan has superior edges and is faster. Sasha is theatrical and bendy and performs whereas Chan always seems disconnected from the audience and from his skate. Admittedly they both have small and usually unstable jumps.

No it wasn't a joke. They both excell in the non-jumping side of skating, hence the comparison.
 

Hikaru

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
Now I hope to go back and watch some of the newbies who interest me, like the Spanish dude.

I am so SO PROUD of Javi!! He's been improving each year so much, his stansing in every competition justgoing up, up and up, hopefylly it will keep going like that.

I'm so happy for Brian as well, for skating better than he did in Vancouver. It must be hard also at the Pallavela, he didn't have nice memories from that place either.

And EXTREMELY happy for Dai, after coming back from that injury...had he skated like this in Vancouver, the story would be sooo different, or even if he hadn't gone for the quad, but it doesn't matter, he's GOLD!!
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
That's a valid concern and many people have wonder about that. The rules are the same for everyone though and everyone knows what they need to do to maximize their chance. KVDP not doing a 3rd combination is his own fault for failing to take advantage of the system. So there is no question of bias or judges favored Chan or biased towards him in the TES because that part of the marks is 95% objective. It is what it is. That's how an established skater like Oda could fail to qualify for the FS because the TES is fairly objective and that makes Figure Skating a sport. Without the TES, this may as well become a big show. I feel fairly confident when the outcome of the competition is determined by the TES as they are today knowing that this portion of the marks is very reliable and the rules are the same for everyone.

But Wally the issue is that while the base value of elements IS objective. There is also this thing called GOE and that is NOT objective. Chan gets high GOE because he does transitions into his jumps and high PCS for his transitions, isn't that a bit much? I personally feel its all a bit to much.. The reason I say this is we see Patrick getting this huge scores here, and at the Olympics for messy, messy skates. And he has yet in international competition to land 3 triple axel passes in one international competition? Lets not even get into quads.

Is it really asking to much that a men's champion be able to land a triple axel consistently? I don't want to see Kevin Vanderparen or Kevin Reynolds at this point winning competitions with their weak basic skating skills. Joubert is not a weak basic skater. But I also don't want to see people who can't do the more difficult jumps dominating men's singles either.

And as for well Kevin V's combination opened up two jumping passes, that is true. But here's the thing Kevin would have had the same base value if he did a single 4toe, a 3sal/3toe, and a double axel/3toe. In fact if one of the combinations was in the later half of the program, he would have gotten a HIGHER base value. Now of course he was unlikely to get the huge GOE he got for that incredible 4toe/3toe/3toe. But I think when you look at what I'm saying you can agree that the base value thing is ridiculous. As it is ridiculous that Plushenko's base value would have been the same if he had done a 4toe and a double axel/3toe in the long. Sure everyone knows the system, but that doesn't mean the system is right or fair.

Daisuke winning was the best thing to happen to men's skating in the long time. He won with whole package-and attempting a 4flip. That's the direction the sport needs to go. Not where its a bad idea to attempt things like 4toe/3toe/3toes because you'll get the same reward if you go an easier route.

I'm just tired of hearing that in men's singles skating-being an all around skater doesn't include having great jumps. While this isn't figure jumping, jumps are a HUGE part of the tradition of men's single's skating. The all around skater should be able to pull of the hard jumps, hard spins, and hard footwork. Like Daisuke tried to do tonight.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
No it wasn't a joke. They both excell in the non-jumping side of skating, hence the comparison.

Geez, I was sure you were kidding - or maybe having another one of your dreams ;)

So would you say that Miki and Kevin V. are also similar since they both excell at jumping :think:
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Chan did land three 3A passes at Worlds 09, but the combo in his LP wasn't clean.

If the combo wasn't clean, than that's not a clean 3A pass is it. Close is now cigar and seriously Mao can do clean 3axel/2toes. Although I will give Chan credit that his 3axel seems to have truly improved.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Geez, I was sure you were kidding - or maybe having another one of your dreams ;)

So would you say that Miki and Kevin V. are also similar since they both excell at jumping :think:

No, Rachael is equivalent to Kevin V, they are both strictly jumpers who are great jumpers but lack speed and don't have the best spins, flexibility, etc. Miki is fairly fast and has pretty good spins and flexibility in addition to her jumps, I would compare her more to Joubert.
 
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