MENS LP and the Results

museksk8r said:

EXACTLY! :agree:

He also very publicly complained about the judges' scores whining that he should have earned 9s in PCS for two very flawed and uninspired programs. What an ego and a phony! :disapp:

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All Evan did was congratulate Dai - and that seems to be enough to bring the bashers out.

Nobody here said he was a saint - just some comments that it was a nice thing to do. :sheesh:

Congratulations to all medalists, especially Daisuke and Brian!



I'm sad for Takahiko and Nobunari, but very happy for the other skaters, especially Javier!

BigJohn said:

Again, the sport is not figure jumping.

GOD... What's wrong with people?

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I know, I know, but it's not like he just did a quad, he did a 4-3-3 and was the only one in the competition to do it, one of the few people to do it in competition ever. That would be like if Mao comes out tomorrow and does 3a-3t-2lo and doesn't beat Yuna. I just feel bad for KVDP because his scores show that even with the 4-3-3 and no falls, he's still 15 points below a guy with no quad and a fall (Chan) in the FS. It must be so frustrating!

I'm going to try to ignore all the hate, as I'm also drunk on Daisuke. He really is the total package. I can't believe it took such an amazing skater so long to win a fitting title, but I'm glad the day finally came. It's great that everyone agrees on who owned the night

Skaters make choices. KVDP and others have chosen to excel in jumping - which is great. However, it is not all that the sport is about. It is about skating, spinning, presentation AND jumping and all of the rest of it. My kid is a skater. He prefers jumping to footwork, but, to be competitive, he has to play in the rules which state that he is measured on all fronts, and work on all of the requirements. We all wish in life that the "rules" would be changed to suit our particular situation ... why not? Or that those people who do what we "like best" would be on top of the heap. Unfortunately, everyone has their own agenda ... and the reality is that not everyone's agenda will be the one that excels, because that is impossible.

dlgpffps said:

I'm going to try to ignore all the hate, as I'm also drunk on Daisuke. He really is the total package. I can't believe it took such an amazing skater so long to win a fitting title, but I'm glad the day finally came. It's great that everyone agrees on who owned the night

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Dai is incredible :agree:! I'm annoyed but I'm not actually surprised that Brezina got low PCS and Chan's score was the way it was, I expected it. Brezina's time hasn't come yet and he looked happy with his scores and to be in 4th, just like Mirai, so that's nice to see. Plus he didn't win the world medal that has eluded Verner for so many years so in some ways that might be a good thing in terms of Verner's confidence, he knows his teammate is wicked good but he also knows that he's equaled Michal's 4th place placement at Worlds twice and has no reason to back down or give up. I want to give a shout out to Adam Rippon too, he was lovely and so elegant, Brian has done wonders with him!

Ren said:

I am curious. Has the quad flip been landed successfully in competition before by any men's skater?

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Michael Weiss did a very good attempt on a Quad Lutz, which was first recognized but then take away after replay as the referee claimed that he two-footed the jump, therefore, voided the attempt as a failure. That was many years ago when Quads were supreme.

silverlake22 said:

I know, I know, but it's not like he just did a quad, he did a 4-3-3 and was the only one in the competition to do it, one of the few people to do it in competition ever. That would be like if Mao comes out tomorrow and does 3a-3t-2lo and doesn't beat Yuna. I just feel bad for KVDP because his scores show that even with the 4-3-3 and no falls, he's still 15 points below a guy with no quad and a fall (Chan) in the FS. It must be so frustrating!

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Kevin looked happy enough - and I was happy not to see him skating in his lame skeleton costume

For 3 seconds or so Kevin commanded the ice - and was rewarded with what - 19points?
Not bad for a few seconds. Chan has to skate much longer to score that many points - and he does things Kevin can't do. So Chan can't do a 4-3-3 either - but does that matter?

You are such a big CoP defender and you should recognize that what Chan does to score so many points few others can do. If everyone had Chan's abilities they would skate like him and get big scores too.

Why resent Chan - he just goes out and skates and the judges love his skating.

So ask yourself - why do the judges love Chan's skating? Why don't more guys skate like him?

The answer is because they can't.

janetfan said:

Kevin looked happy enough - and I was happy not to see him skating in his lame skeleton costume

For 3 seconds or so Kevin commanded the ice - and was rewarded with what - 19points?
Not bad for a few seconds. Chan has to skate much longer to score that many points - and he does things Kevin can't do. So Chan can't do a 4-3-3 either - but does that matter?

You are such a big CoP defender and you should recognize that what Chan does to score so many points few others can do. If everyone had Chan's abilities they would skate like him and get big scores too.

Why resent Chan - he just goes out and skates and the judges love his skating.

So ask yourself - why do the judges love Chan's skating? Why don't more guys skate like him?

The answer is because they can't.

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Fair point, I think I just identify more with the jumpers of the sport, I've never been a big Sasha fan because I find her weak in the jump department, but CoP is a points based system and they have to be doing something well to earn all those points. Also Chan is not a bad jumper, he's just better in the other aspects of skating.

Wrlmy said:

Incredibly happy for Dai! ... I just realized my newfound love for Dai has to do with Morozov, or lack of it. I used to far prefer Oda when he was with Lee Barkell and Dai was with Morozov. Even Cyber Swan which everyone loved left me cold for some reason. But now that Dai's on his own, he has far more pronounced identity on the ice.

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I share the same statement about the 2 Japanese guys. I used to love Oda so much until 2 years ago (more than Dai), but not now,
I still kinda love him (for the past), but in the same time I have problem to apreciate Morozov's pupils and work, and I'm kind of glad
that Oda didn't make the LP, rather than finishing 7th or 17th, because I wish he leaves Morozov

janetfan said:

So ask yourself - why do the judges love Chan's skating? Why don't more guys skate like him?

The answer is because they can't.

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Are you for real? Who in the world would want to watch every man at the world championship skate just like Patrick Chan? A world full of Patrick Chan clones surely wouldn't save the state of figure skating. The guys want to have and develop their own individual styles, not skate just like Patrick. For you to suggest that Chan is somehow the standard that all others should aspire to lacks weight and merit because the only ISU championship the guy has ever won is a 4CC title in 2009. His resume is not that glowing and we've all seen him have his share of meltdowns. He's not close to being the male Yu-Na Kim or Michelle Kwan that you are trying to portray him to be.

museksk8r said:

Are you for real? Who in the world would want to watch every man at the world championship skate just like Patrick Chan? A world full of Patrick Chan clones surely wouldn't save the state of figure skating. The guys want to have and develop their own individual styles, not skate just like Patrick. For you to suggest that Chan is somehow the standard that all others should aspire to lacks weight and merit because the only ISU title the guy has ever won is a 4CC title in 2009. His resume is not that glowing and we've all seen him have his share of meltdowns. He's not close to being the male Yu-Na Kim or Michelle Kwan that you are trying to portray him to be.

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He's the male Sasha Cohen.

silverlake22 said:

He's the male Sasha Cohen.

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That made me laugh. Instead of seeing Sasha Cohen, I saw Sasha Baron Cohen. Ahahahaha. Oh man.

museksk8r said:

Are you for real? Who in the world would want to watch every man at the world championship skate just like Patrick Chan? A world full of Patrick Chan clones surely wouldn't save the state of figure skating. The guys want to have and develop their own individual styles, not skate just like Patrick. For you to suggest that Chan is somehow the standard that all others should aspire to lacks weight and merit because the only ISU title the guy has ever won is a 4CC title in 2009. His resume is not that glowing and we've all seen him have his share of meltdowns. He's not close to being the male Yu-Na Kim or Michelle Kwan that you are trying to portray him to be.

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I said none of the things you implied. I definitely did not say I want eveyone to skate like Chan. I did say most can't skate like him and that the judges love his skating.

I dont care whether you agree or not because I saw Chan skate and saw his score and second Silver medal.

You don't have to like him - just like I don't care much for Joubert. But I understand not everyone can land the big jumps - and I think it would be beyond boring if Joubert's stye - or lack of style was the model for future skaters.

Chan did NOT win - so you can breath a sigh of relief. But your opinions are not quite what the reality of the situation is.

Chan gets big scores because he is a very strong CoP skater. Judges happen to like him alot. You don't. No big deal

aftertherain said:

That made me laugh. Instead of seeing Sasha Cohen, I saw Sasha Baron Cohen. Ahahahaha. Oh man.

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Borat on ice would have been funny.

museksk8r said:

Are you for real? Who in the world would want to watch every man at the world championship skate just like Patrick Chan? A world full of Patrick Chan clones surely wouldn't save the state of figure skating. The guys want to have and develop their own individual styles, not skate just like Patrick. For you to suggest that Chan is somehow the standard that all others should aspire to lacks weight and merit because the only ISU championship the guy has ever won is a 4CC title in 2009. His resume is not that glowing and we've all seen him have his share of meltdowns. He's not close to being the male Yu-Na Kim or Michelle Kwan that you are trying to portray him to be.

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I don't think janetfan means other skaters should clone him. He/she's just saying it's difficult to skate like Patrick can, which is definitely true. If everyone could use such deep edges and flow, they would because it would garner monstrous scores like Chan. I've yet to watch his Worlds LP, but I know he has exceptional skating skills (although I don't really dig his score). He has some of the best skating skills in the field. He was rightfully rewarded for that. But I don't get the other components. I wish someone could explain very thoroughly for me.

janetfan said:

Kevin looked happy enough - and I was happy not to see him skating in his lame skeleton costume

For 3 seconds or so Kevin commanded the ice - and was rewarded with what - 19points?
Not bad for a few seconds. Chan has to skate much longer to score that many points - and he does things Kevin can't do. So Chan can't do a 4-3-3 either - but does that matter?

You are such a big CoP defender and you should recognize that what Chan does to score so many points few others can do. If everyone had Chan's abilities they would skate like him and get big scores too.

Why resent Chan - he just goes out and skates and the judges love his skating.

So ask yourself - why do the judges love Chan's skating? Why don't more guys skate like him?

The answer is because they can't.

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It all comes down to a question of math, which is what CoP is about. silverlake22, for some reasons, seems to ignore the 12 other elements when he/she thinks KVDP is underscored vs. Patrick Chan. But when you put them SBS, it's pretty clear why Chan scored much higher TES and it's not all because of his spins and footwork either. Here is a SBS comparion on jumps:

KVDP

4T; 3A; 3Lz; 3F; 3Lo; 3S; 3T X 2;, 2A; 2F => Total Base Value from Jumps = +/- 52.2

Patrick Chan

3A X 2; 3Lz X 2; 3F; 3Lo; 3S; 3T; 2A; 2Lo; 2T X 2 => Total Base Value from Jumps = +/- 55.0

Shocking eh? Not really, it's called math. I found that people who complained the loudest tend not to think or calculate before they complain. Even if we overlook all the spins and step sequences which KVDP sucks big time, Patrick Chan still has higher base value from all his jumps than does KVDP, even though the latter has a Quad and a 4+3+3 combo. For one thing, KVDP doesn't have a second Triple Axel and had only 2 jump combinations even though he could have three and should have taken advantage of the opportunity. Under CoP, it's really hard to argue against TES because this portion of the marks is fairly objective and it is what it is. Even though KVDP had no falls, he did have some mistakes such as the minor edge call (!) on his Triple Lutz and unstable landing on his Triple Salchow, cost him about 1 point per piece on these jumps. You could certain say Patrick Chan's errors were more serious from a GOE standpoint, which is true but factoring the higher Base Value to begin with, it sort of become a wash even at the jump level. Now layering the spins and step sequences on top of everything, no wonder Patrick Chan blew KVDP away in the TES even though the non-jump elements merely count for about 25% of the total TES whereas the jumps count for about 75%.

See, when you put it down on paper, it really isn't hard to see the why and what not. I just wish people would think more before they open their mouth.

aftertherain said:

That made me laugh. Instead of seeing Sasha Cohen, I saw Sasha Baron Cohen. Ahahahaha. Oh man.

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. But no seriously, both of them always seem to make mistakes in the jumps, don't attempt the really difficult jumps (quad for Chan, 3-3 for Cohen), don't have the biggest jumps, but have "artistry" and "presenence" that make up for it. Neither is my cup or tea but I will admit they have some good qualities and are very impressive in some respects.

janetfan said:

Kevin looked happy enough - and I was happy not to see him skating in his lame skeleton costume

For 3 seconds or so Kevin commanded the ice - and was rewarded with what - 19points?
Not bad for a few seconds. Chan has to skate much longer to score that many points - and he does things Kevin can't do. So Chan can't do a 4-3-3 either - but does that matter?

You are such a big CoP defender and you should recognize that what Chan does to score so many points few others can do. If everyone had Chan's abilities they would skate like him and get big scores too.

Why resent Chan - he just goes out and skates and the judges love his skating.

So ask yourself - why do the judges love Chan's skating? Why don't more guys skate like him?

The answer is because they can't.

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I don't resent Chan's skating and I don't thing the others that bring up their points do either. My thing is that if everyone is going to fuss at people like Joubert and Plulshy for a lack of artistry, why can't people question some of Chan's skating? As I mentioned earlier, nobody is disputing that Chan has great edging, SS and all that jazz. But there are things that were not so great during his FS today and I think getting nearly 160 for that skate was a little much.

Mrs. P said:

I don't resent Chan's skating and I don't thing the others that bring up their points do either. My thing is that if everyone is going to fuss at people like Joubert and Plulshy for a lack of artistry, why can't people question some of Chan's skating? As I mentioned earlier, nobody is disputing that Chan has great edging, SS and all that jazz. But there are things that were not so great during his FS today and I think getting nearly 160 for that skate was a little much.

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THANK YOU! :agree: