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Thread: MENS LP and the Results

  1. #616
    Waiting for on-ice perfection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Are you for real? Who in the world would want to watch every man at the world championship skate just like Patrick Chan? A world full of Patrick Chan clones surely wouldn't save the state of figure skating. The guys want to have and develop their own individual styles, not skate just like Patrick. For you to suggest that Chan is somehow the standard that all others should aspire to lacks weight and merit because the only ISU championship the guy has ever won is a 4CC title in 2009. His resume is not that glowing and we've all seen him have his share of meltdowns. He's not close to being the male Yu-Na Kim or Michelle Kwan that you are trying to portray him to be.
    I don't think janetfan means other skaters should clone him. He/she's just saying it's difficult to skate like Patrick can, which is definitely true. If everyone could use such deep edges and flow, they would because it would garner monstrous scores like Chan. I've yet to watch his Worlds LP, but I know he has exceptional skating skills (although I don't really dig his score). He has some of the best skating skills in the field. He was rightfully rewarded for that. But I don't get the other components. I wish someone could explain very thoroughly for me.
    Last edited by dlgpffps; 03-25-2010 at 07:59 PM.

  2. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Kevin looked happy enough - and I was happy not to see him skating in his lame skeleton costume

    For 3 seconds or so Kevin commanded the ice - and was rewarded with what - 19points?
    Not bad for a few seconds. Chan has to skate much longer to score that many points - and he does things Kevin can't do. So Chan can't do a 4-3-3 either - but does that matter?

    You are such a big CoP defender and you should recognize that what Chan does to score so many points few others can do. If everyone had Chan's abilities they would skate like him and get big scores too.

    Why resent Chan - he just goes out and skates and the judges love his skating.

    So ask yourself - why do the judges love Chan's skating? Why don't more guys skate like him?

    The answer is because they can't.
    It all comes down to a question of math, which is what CoP is about. silverlake22, for some reasons, seems to ignore the 12 other elements when he/she thinks KVDP is underscored vs. Patrick Chan. But when you put them SBS, it's pretty clear why Chan scored much higher TES and it's not all because of his spins and footwork either. Here is a SBS comparion on jumps:

    KVDP

    4T; 3A; 3Lz; 3F; 3Lo; 3S; 3T X 2;, 2A; 2F => Total Base Value from Jumps = +/- 52.2

    Patrick Chan

    3A X 2; 3Lz X 2; 3F; 3Lo; 3S; 3T; 2A; 2Lo; 2T X 2 => Total Base Value from Jumps = +/- 55.0

    Shocking eh? Not really, it's called math. I found that people who complained the loudest tend not to think or calculate before they complain. Even if we overlook all the spins and step sequences which KVDP sucks big time, Patrick Chan still has higher base value from all his jumps than does KVDP, even though the latter has a Quad and a 4+3+3 combo. For one thing, KVDP doesn't have a second Triple Axel and had only 2 jump combinations even though he could have three and should have taken advantage of the opportunity. Under CoP, it's really hard to argue against TES because this portion of the marks is fairly objective and it is what it is. Even though KVDP had no falls, he did have some mistakes such as the minor edge call (!) on his Triple Lutz and unstable landing on his Triple Salchow, cost him about 1 point per piece on these jumps. You could certain say Patrick Chan's errors were more serious from a GOE standpoint, which is true but factoring the higher Base Value to begin with, it sort of become a wash even at the jump level. Now layering the spins and step sequences on top of everything, no wonder Patrick Chan blew KVDP away in the TES even though the non-jump elements merely count for about 25% of the total TES whereas the jumps count for about 75%.

    See, when you put it down on paper, it really isn't hard to see the why and what not. I just wish people would think more before they open their mouth.

  3. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    That made me laugh. Instead of seeing Sasha Cohen, I saw Sasha Baron Cohen. Ahahahaha. Oh man.
    . But no seriously, both of them always seem to make mistakes in the jumps, don't attempt the really difficult jumps (quad for Chan, 3-3 for Cohen), don't have the biggest jumps, but have "artistry" and "presenence" that make up for it. Neither is my cup or tea but I will admit they have some good qualities and are very impressive in some respects.

  4. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Kevin looked happy enough - and I was happy not to see him skating in his lame skeleton costume

    For 3 seconds or so Kevin commanded the ice - and was rewarded with what - 19points?
    Not bad for a few seconds. Chan has to skate much longer to score that many points - and he does things Kevin can't do. So Chan can't do a 4-3-3 either - but does that matter?

    You are such a big CoP defender and you should recognize that what Chan does to score so many points few others can do. If everyone had Chan's abilities they would skate like him and get big scores too.

    Why resent Chan - he just goes out and skates and the judges love his skating.

    So ask yourself - why do the judges love Chan's skating? Why don't more guys skate like him?

    The answer is because they can't.
    I don't resent Chan's skating and I don't thing the others that bring up their points do either. My thing is that if everyone is going to fuss at people like Joubert and Plulshy for a lack of artistry, why can't people question some of Chan's skating? As I mentioned earlier, nobody is disputing that Chan has great edging, SS and all that jazz. But there are things that were not so great during his FS today and I think getting nearly 160 for that skate was a little much.

  5. #620
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I don't resent Chan's skating and I don't thing the others that bring up their points do either. My thing is that if everyone is going to fuss at people like Joubert and Plulshy for a lack of artistry, why can't people question some of Chan's skating? As I mentioned earlier, nobody is disputing that Chan has great edging, SS and all that jazz. But there are things that were not so great during his FS today and I think getting nearly 160 for that skate was a little much.
    THANK YOU!

  6. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    It all comes down to a question of math, which is what CoP is about. silverlake22, for some reasons, seems to ignore the 12 other elements when he/she thinks KVDP is underscored vs. Patrick Chan. But when you put them SBS, it's pretty clear why Chan scored much higher TES and it's not all because of his spins and footwork either. Here is a SBS comparion on jumps:

    KVDP

    4T; 3A; 3Lz; 3F; 3Lo; 3S; 3T X 2;, 2A; 2F => Total Base Value from Jumps = +/- 52.2

    Patrick Chan

    3A X 2; 3Lz X 2; 3F; 3Lo; 3S; 3T; 2A; 2Lo; 2T X 2 => Total Base Value from Jumps = +/- 55.0

    Shocking eh? Not really, it's called math. I found that people who complained the loudest tend not to think or calculate before they complain. Even if we overlook all the spins and step sequences which KVDP sucks big time, Patrick Chan still has higher base value from all his jumps than does KVDP, even though the latter has a Quad and a 4+3+3 combo. For one thing, KVDP doesn't have a second Triple Axel and had only 2 jump combinations even though he could have three and should have taken advantage of the opportunity. Under CoP, it's really hard to argue against TES because this portion of the marks is fairly objective and it is what it is. Even though KVDP had no falls, he did have some mistakes such as the minor edge call (!) on his Triple Lutz and unstable landing on his Triple Salchow, cost him about 1 point per piece on these jumps. You could certain say Patrick Chan's errors were more serious from a GOE standpoint, which is true but factoring the higher Base Value to begin with, it sort of become a wash even at the jump level. Now layering the spins and step sequences on top of everything, no wonder Patrick Chan blew KVDP away in the TES even though the non-jump elements merely count for about 25% of the total TES whereas the jumps count for about 75%.

    See, when you put it down on paper, it really isn't hard to see the why and what not. I just wish people would think more before they open their mouth.
    Ok, ok point made. I just think the quad should be worth more points and that jumps done in combination should be worth more than just the base values of the jumps added together. Doing a 4t-3t-3t is harder than doing a solo 4t, a solo 3t, and a solo 3t, and yet point wise there is no distinction.

  7. #622
    Dedicated follower of the black line Wicked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apple123 View Post
    Jeremy seems to have tear in his eyes. It's official, he's a headcase. Ironically, he peaked too early, at Nationals and then bomb at Oly and world...
    To me, Jeremy always looks like he either just cried or is about to cry.

  8. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    ItShocking eh? Not really, it's called math. I found that people who complained the loudest tend not to think or calculate before they complain. .
    To believe CoP is some sort of honest and objective math is just idiotic. The Chan defenders are just blowing smoke. Technical controllers can give your element a level 4 when you're judges' pet, and they will downgrade it to 0 if you're no longer HOT. Then you include those goe manipulation. Only the most idiotic and dishonest Chan defenders can convince themselves the value of his 'points'.
    Last edited by watchvancouver; 03-25-2010 at 08:15 PM.

  9. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I don't resent Chan's skating and I don't thing the others that bring up their points do either. My thing is that if everyone is going to fuss at people like Joubert and Plulshy for a lack of artistry, why can't people question some of Chan's skating? As I mentioned earlier, nobody is disputing that Chan has great edging, SS and all that jazz. But there are things that were not so great during his FS today and I think getting nearly 160 for that skate was a little much.
    Then I think you should back up your opinion by explaing the why you feel that way and list your points with supporting arguments. Because if you only say: "I feel he is overmarked." It's an unsupported statement. We don't understand where you are coming from and have no way to look into your reasoning and see if it makes sense or not. Someone else made a point about KVDP having 4+3+3 while Chan does not but upon dissection, it's clear that the KVDP being the superior jumper claim is quickly disproved as a myth and therefore, the poster's argument made no logical sense. At least, the poster made his/her point clear so that we can examine its merit at least and it gives that person a chance to re-examine his/her position. That's what a discussion forum is for.

  10. #625
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I don't resent Chan's skating and I don't thing the others that bring up their points do either. My thing is that if everyone is going to fuss at people like Joubert and Plulshy for a lack of artistry, why can't people question some of Chan's skating? As I mentioned earlier, nobody is disputing that Chan has great edging, SS and all that jazz. But there are things that were not so great during his FS today and I think getting nearly 160 for that skate was a little much.
    I never said Chan was perfect or even clean today.
    I said he has some abilites that many of the others dont.
    He is not my favorite skater just like Joubert is not my favorite skater either. Of the two I would rather watch Patrick skate - but that is just my preference.

    I did not address my post to you but your answer is fine. There is alot of Chan hate going around and the oddest thing is so much of it is from BIG CoP supporters. I would think they would understand how and why Chan gets such favorable scores - but these CoP fans appear to be pretty clueless and full of vinegar too.

    Like I said - all Patrick does is go out and skate. Any problems with his scores should be directed at the CoP or judges. Why bash a skater for performing his programs and doing well?

  11. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Ok, ok point made. I just think the quad should be worth more points and that jumps done in combination should be worth more than just the base values of the jumps added together. Doing a 4t-3t-3t is harder than doing a solo 4t, a solo 3t, and a solo 3t, and yet point wise there is no distinction.
    That's a valid concern and many people have wonder about that. The rules are the same for everyone though and everyone knows what they need to do to maximize their chance. KVDP not doing a 3rd combination is his own fault for failing to take advantage of the system. So there is no question of bias or judges favored Chan or biased towards him in the TES because that part of the marks is 95% objective. It is what it is. That's how an established skater like Oda could fail to qualify for the FS because the TES is fairly objective and that makes Figure Skating a sport. Without the TES, this may as well become a big show. I feel fairly confident when the outcome of the competition is determined by the TES as they are today knowing that this portion of the marks is very reliable and the rules are the same for everyone.

  12. #627
    Custom Title Moxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    . But no seriously, both of them always seem to make mistakes in the jumps, don't attempt the really difficult jumps (quad for Chan, 3-3 for Cohen), don't have the biggest jumps, but have "artistry" and "presenence" that make up for it. Neither is my cup or tea but I will admit they have some good qualities and are very impressive in some respects.
    Wait, seriously? I thought it was a joke. :P
    Chan has superior edges and is faster. Sasha is theatrical and bendy and performs whereas Chan always seems disconnected from the audience and from his skate. Admittedly they both have small and usually unstable jumps.

  13. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Ok, ok point made. I just think the quad should be worth more points and that jumps done in combination should be worth more than just the base values of the jumps added together. Doing a 4t-3t-3t is harder than doing a solo 4t, a solo 3t, and a solo 3t, and yet point wise there is no distinction.
    Yes. But doing a 4t-3t-3t takes up only one jumping pass, so the skater have two more jumping passes to earn more points than a skater who landed a 4t and two seperate 3t. If the skater wastes that opportunity by doing doubles, who is to blame?

  14. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrlmy View Post
    Yes. But doing a 4t-3t-3t takes up only one jumping pass, so the skater have two more jumping passes to earn more points than a skater who landed a 4t and two seperate 3t. If the skater wastes that opportunity by doing doubles, who is to blame?
    Or for that matter, like I mentioned earlier, failing to do a 3rd jump combo, like tagging a nice double loop at the end of a triple or add a Double Axel to a lower level Triple, like the Salchow, and get even more points as a sequence from the 2A. KVDP is lucky that he is 9th in the FS, since the judges placed him behind even Kevin Reynolds in the FS and he was actually held up with his PCS even though Reynolds actually beat him in the TES by almost 10 points.

  15. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxie View Post
    Wait, seriously? I thought it was a joke. :P
    Chan has superior edges and is faster. Sasha is theatrical and bendy and performs whereas Chan always seems disconnected from the audience and from his skate. Admittedly they both have small and usually unstable jumps.
    No it wasn't a joke. They both excell in the non-jumping side of skating, hence the comparison.

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