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Thread: MENS LP and the Results

  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    But Wally the issue is that while the base value of elements IS objective. There is also this thing called GOE and that is NOT objective. Chan gets high GOE because he does transitions into his jumps and high PCS for his transitions, isn't that a bit much? I personally feel its all a bit to much.. The reason I say this is we see Patrick getting this huge scores here, and at the Olympics for messy, messy skates. And he has yet in international competition to land 3 triple axel passes in one international competition? Lets not even get into quads.
    It is true that GOE is often subject to interpretation but it is also a misconception that they aren't objective. The ISU have very specific guidelines that judges MUST follow when awarding GOE. The most notable one is fall = mandatory -3. Others include, less revolution than required in the SP is another automatic -3. Jump that receives a "e" from the technical panel must receive negative GOE. Anyway, the list goes on and on and went into great details, not just the negative aspect but also what constitutes positive aspects as well. In most cases, I found the judges' GOE have been quite fair, especially when there 9 people - the average tends to be fairly accurate to the reality and the rules.

    Transitions is cornerstone of figure skating just as edge is to basic skating skill. Transitions make execution of elements much harder, which contribute to a skater's TES but it isn't the only thing being considered either. Patrick Chan probably would not have fallen on his Triple Loop today if his entry into that jump wasn't so unbelievably hard and ambitious. I was telling myself he was a little crazy for doing that and he paid a price for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Is it really asking to much that a men's champion be able to land a triple axel consistently? I don't want to see Kevin Vanderparen or Kevin Reynolds at this point winning competitions with their weak basic skating skills. Joubert is not a weak basic skater. But I also don't want to see people who can't do the more difficult jumps dominating men's singles either.
    Patrick Chan isn't the World Champion and Yu-Na Kim, Mao Asada and Joannie Rochette have all fallen on a Double Axel this year, it doesn't make any of those women any less admirable because they fall on a Double Axel. So yes, I think you are being unreasonable to demand that skaters not to make mistakes on certain jumps. There is no such litmus test on skaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post

    And as for well Kevin V's combination opened up two jumping passes, that is true. But here's the thing Kevin would have had the same base value if he did a single 4toe, a 3sal/3toe, and a double axel/3toe. In fact if one of the combinations was in the later half of the program, he would have gotten a HIGHER base value. Now of course he was unlikely to get the huge GOE he got for that incredible 4toe/3toe/3toe. But I think when you look at what I'm saying you can agree that the base value thing is ridiculous. As it is ridiculous that Plushenko's base value would have been the same if he had done a 4toe and a double axel/3toe in the long. Sure everyone knows the system, but that doesn't mean the system is right or fair.
    You have a point, the detachment of difficulty level on the jump combination is an often raised objection. But you also failed to consider that jump combo does liberate valuable jumping passes that would otherwise be unavailable. The upside of IJS is that a jump combination, if used widely, would allow a skater to include more jumps than his/her competitors, which can add up significantly. Someone who managed to include 8 Triples already, could then think of ways to include the three double axel allowances into his program and milk the system to his advantage. Remember, men are limited to only 8 jumping passes in LP while women, only 7. KVDP's LP is poorly designed and careless. Besides, adding Triple jumps behind a jump that you don't plan to repeat is a waste. That's why Kevin Reynolds doesn't do Triple toe behind either of his two Quads in the LP. Why KVDP failed to grasp that, it says to me he is fairly uneducated about IJS or that the fact he coaches himself is really costing him valuable points. So overall, although it is true that IJS doesn't give higher difficulty points for combos, it does compensate in another way, which can be just as valuable if not more - provided the skater is smart enough to design his program in response to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post

    I'm just tired of hearing that in men's singles skating-being an all around skater doesn't include having great jumps. While this isn't figure jumping, jumps are a HUGE part of the tradition of men's single's skating. The all around skater should be able to pull of the hard jumps, hard spins, and hard footwork. Like Daisuke tried to do tonight.
    On that, I cannot agree with you. I think every World medalist in men's skating today cannot be where they are without being good jumpers. As discussed elsewhere, Chan's base value from his jumps are in fact pretty high, higher than even KVDP, a supposedly outstanding jumper. I think people who said Chan is inflated failed to consider he actually jumped very well in the jumps he actually does. His Triple Toe is often higher than his first jump (Triple Flip), which is quite amazing. His Triple Axels are huge and flow smoothly on exit when he lands them. His transitions into his Lutzes are out of this world, scarily difficult. Do you how many clean Triples Joubert did today? Two. He managed only two clean Triples in my opinion, three if you count his opening Axel as clean, which I don't. For the sake of argument, Joubert only had 3 clean Triples and got credit for a total 6 Triples attempts whereas the maximum is 8. While his Quads were great, the fact he is clean on only 50% of Triples ensured that he is going to lose to someone who is quadless like Chan but does 8 Triples in his program and landing most of them. Is Joubert suddenly more deserving just because he can land Quad yet misses his Triples? I think not.
    Last edited by wallylutz; 03-25-2010 at 09:58 PM.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    But touching the emotions of the audience is Chan's very major weak point, and this music does him no favors, but makes him appear even more robotic than usual. Bad move, Patrick.
    So does that mean that is he chooses robot music, it'll be a good choice? Ahahaha. Oh man. Robot music. How strange.

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I disagree that it's a bad move. It might not do him any favours, but for someone who's jumps aren't consistent, keeping music you're familiar with and having one less thing to work on seems like it could help. Only time will tell. Buttle won his worlds with repeated programs. Hell, Chan just won his second silver medal with the same short program music as he had last year.
    But Buttle was a true performance artist! Repeating a piece of music allowed him to find emotional highs that he might not have reached earlier.

    That is not the case with Chan. He'll just focus on the technical, which is what he always does, while neglecting interpretation, truly expressing the music and relating to the audience. Repeating programs just reinforces what he is already doing. He's an inconsistent jumper anyway, and probably always will be, to some extent.

    Buttle was inconsistent too, but he could always reach out to the audience and it was his saving grace.

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    Like I said, only time will tell. I think it's the right choice to make. As long as he does something different with his short.

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    So does that mean that is he chooses robot music, it'll be a good choice? Ahahaha. Oh man. Robot music. How strange.
    If Chan skated to, say, Bach, the music would be more in keeping with his skating style, which is rather precise and mechanical. But POTO is very emotional music, and Chan is very unemotional. So his skating style clashes with the type of music he has chosen. Capisce?

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    If Chan skated to, say, Bach, the music would be more in keeping with his skating style, which is rather precise and mechanical. But POTO is very emotional music, and Chan is very unemotional. So his skating style clashes with the type of music he has chosen. Capisce?
    You mean you don't want Chan skating to "Smack My .. Up?"

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Takahashi will probably successfully defend his title next year at Worlds in Japan. I wonder how Chan will feel being a bridesmaid yet again.
    There is a saying, don't count the chickens before they hatch. I think this would serve you well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jennylovskt View Post
    I can never make such connection. Sasha has the most beautiful lines and grace like a swan. Where is Chan's? To me, his LP is just so so in choreography. His skating is amazing in terms of using edges, but his entire body lines and expressions are totally burried into this pool of extreme talented skaters. His hands are extremely annoying actually. Except his edges which people have used as a fashion now, nothing is special. Johnny Weir is much closer to male Sasha Cohen.

    Anyway, no matter who's camp everyone's in, I believe Takahashi won with no dispute. So Takahashi saved the day! I can imagine what would be like if Chan won.

    A little sad for Joubert. But at least he's on the podium again, and he's happy.
    Chan has excellent flexibility in his spins and has that theatrical presence.

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I disagree that it's a bad move. It might not do him any favours, but for someone who's jumps aren't consistent, keeping music you're familiar with and having one less thing to work on seems like it could help. Only time will tell. Buttle won his worlds with repeated programs. Hell, Chan just won his second silver medal with the same short program music as he had last year.
    The claim that he will re-use the same music for his LP is simply an uncofirmed rumor, and frankly, I doubt it seriously. Let's not give it more credit than it is due at this time.

  10. #670
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    Takahashi certainly seems like the undisputed champion at this World's. He is such a complete skater, and everything is likeable about him; his technical abilities, his choreo, personality, look.

    Chan really has noticeably excellent skating skills. I don't consider myself an expert in being able to spot it out all the time, but it's quite apparent even to my eyes. I do wish he were stronger and more consistent on his jumps, and was more...tactful when he speaks. His upper body movements also, are not as high-quality as his blade work. I don't think he deserves the hate that he gets.

    I'm so-so on Joubert, but I never feel upset when he gets a good outcome. He also has a boyish vulnerability about him (despite his macho-Euroish style of skating) that makes me want to be gentle with him as far as criticisms go LOL

    Abbott remains one of my favourites, I just wish he were more of a competitor. I'm really excited to see how Rippon, Brezina and Denis Ten will grow.

  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn View Post
    and I love that he knows just how good he is.
    I want to throw up. Is PC's daddy blogging on GS?

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARipp42014 View Post
    Can we ban him? Better yet, just press ignore! That person will get the point.
    added watchvancouver to ignore, thank you!

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Are you for real? Who in the world would want to watch every man at the world championship skate just like Patrick Chan? A world full of Patrick Chan clones surely wouldn't save the state of figure skating. The guys want to have and develop their own individual styles, not skate just like Patrick. For you to suggest that Chan is somehow the standard that all others should aspire to lacks weight and merit because the only ISU championship the guy has ever won is a 4CC title in 2009. His resume is not that glowing and we've all seen him have his share of meltdowns. He's not close to being the male Yu-Na Kim or Michelle Kwan that you are trying to portray him to be.
    Patrick hasn't had that many meltdowns. And to say that his resume isn't glowing is insulting. He is 19 years old. Many of his competitors are 5+ year older than him and his is still beating them. Let's not forget he is the 2-time World Silver medalist who was the world JUNIOR silver medalist 3 years ago. He was the national junior champion in 05 and competed in his first senior nationals in 06. Lysacek, Joubert, Oda & Takahashi were all competing at the worlds or olympics in 06. Patrick is the future of mens skating and once he adds the quad....WATCH OUT!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DivaDes View Post
    Patrick hasn't had that many meltdowns. And to say that his resume isn't glowing is insulting. He is 19 years old. Many of his competitors are 5+ year older than him and his is still beating them. Let's not forget he is the 2-time World Silver medalist who was the world JUNIOR silver medalist 3 years ago. He was the national junior champion in 05 and competed in his first senior nationals in 06. Lysacek, Joubert, Oda & Takahashi were all competing at the worlds or olympics in 06. Patrick is the future of mens skating and once he adds the quad....WATCH OUT!!
    Everybody has to watch out right now. Two silvers at Worlds in 3 attemps are strong results.

    But I agree, he is the future of skating.

  15. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivaDes View Post
    Patrick hasn't had that many meltdowns. And to say that his resume isn't glowing is insulting. He is 19 years old. Many of his competitors are 5+ year older than him and his is still beating them. Let's not forget he is the 2-time World Silver medalist who was the world JUNIOR silver medalist 3 years ago. He was the national junior champion in 05 and competed in his first senior nationals in 06. Lysacek, Joubert, Oda & Takahashi were all competing at the worlds or olympics in 06. Patrick is the future of mens skating and once he adds the quad....WATCH OUT!!
    Why? Does that mean he will jump high enough to fall into the judging panel?

    Couldn't resist...

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