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Thread: MENS LP and the Results

  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Funny, Korea is not a powerful nation as far as figure skating is concerned, yet somehow Yu-Na Kim seems to manage just fine. Do you have an explanation for that as well or should I rather believe as numerous youtube clips claim, it's due to Korean money that bought Kim where she is today?
    Unlike Chan, she usually skates very well and skates clean programs, as she did at the Olympics. In her case the marks she gets are because of talent, not politics.

    Btw, I am Canadian and I object to the preferential treatment given to Patrick Chan.

  2. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Funny, Korea is not a powerful nation as far as figure skating is concerned, yet somehow Yu-Na Kim seems to manage just fine. Do you have a political explanation for that as well or should I rather believe as numerous youtube clips claim, it's due to Korean money that bought Kim where she is today?
    Yu na is head and fields above the rest of the field. She skates faster and is doing big time technical tricks like 3lutz/3toes. The only person who does harder technical jumps is Mao, and Yu-na is more consistent than Mao.. Its hard to ignore a girl who is doing huge 3flip/3toes and no 3lutz/3toes in the short program. While Patrick has very good edges and transitions/in between elements, he's not exactly the best skater in everything that the Canadians make him out to be. The things he does well would be very easy for the judges to ignore if he came from a less powerful federation. Look at how S/S have gotten treated this year. As soon as a team from a powerful federation came along that could come close to them and the Russians got better.

    And the Korean federation certainly has more power than lets say the German federation. Considering the HUGE amounts of revenue the tv rights bring. And the fact that the Koreans dominate short track skating.

    I'm not saying Patrick doesn't do somethings incredibly well because he truly does. His edges and skating skills, and ability to do hard transitions in between jumps is to die for. But he's not the most wonderful artist on ice right now-he could like Kozuka work on reaching the audience more (for one thing) and more expression. While his blades are great, I don't think he's the best at really expressioning the music with his whole body (including face) like Daisuke/Lambiel. And Patrick's jumps aren't exactly the best of the men, and while he's a good spinner, I think Kozuka is better. I'm just tired of hearing from Canadians that Patrick is the beeesst at everything else. I'm sorry I just don't agree. And Patrick is done no favors when he's told this.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-26-2010 at 01:06 AM.

  3. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by lksunga View Post
    I really wish Jeremy get coached by Brian Orser. David Wilson will loosen his anxiety and Orser will help him with confidence as they did to Yuna. He has everything but nerve. Maybe he should be coached by prushenko, the king of confidence... sigh.
    I think Jeremy should stay with Yuka Sato. She is a very calm person and she made Jeremy calm. I've seen a big difference before and after his moving to Sato. To see how different his behavior at K&C now and then, you'll see the change. Besides, I loved his costume change from the last year to this year. I believe he'll be better next year.

  4. #694
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    Patrick Chan skated terribly and walked away with a 1 point off of his personal best. I'm lost for words.

  5. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Patrick Chan skated terribly and walked away with a 1 point off of his personal best. I'm lost for words.
    Me too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Well it helps that he's competiting for Canada-a powerful federation and that he doesn't exactly have a strong men's field in Canada. But it was strong enough when he was starting off where at least someone like Jeff was ensuring they got 2 spots.
    In case you forgot, let me refresh your memory, Jeff Buttle actually won the 2008 Worlds as Canada's #2 man, not #1. Guess who was the Canadian Champion? You got it! The guy who has been bashed by you and a ton of people without good cause in this thread and who happened to be the youngest skater still among Top 10 at the Worlds this year. Your whole argument that if Chan had been #2 in Canada, he wouldn't have done as well just doesn't make any sense given Buttle just proved you can win the World handily by being the number 2 in your own country or for that matter, Evan won the World as the #3 in the U.S. and won the Olympic as the #2 US skater. Just give up on that baseless argument, will you please? These skaters acheived what they have accomplished on their own merits, not because they have a powerful federation or a weak one, for that matter. Do you think the Czechs are considered powerful skating federation? And why would Brezina suddenly move from a nobody to 4th in the World all of sudden? Why would a powerful federation like Russia failed to even qualify 2 spots for next year given that Voronov used to be the Russian Champion prior to Plushenko's return and even placed Top 10 in the Worlds before?

  7. #697
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    nice press conference, Daisuke had a great translator, and Brian was playful towards him with 4F/Lz challenge haha
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1p_1lW4WBA

  8. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    In case you forgot, let me refresh your memory, Jeff Buttle actually won the 2008 Worlds as Canada's #2 man, not #1. Guess who was the Canadian Champion? You got it! The guy who has been bashed by you and a ton of people without good cause in this thread and who happened to be the youngest skater still among Top 10 at the Worlds this year. Your whole argument that if Chan had been #2 in Canada, he wouldn't have done as well just doesn't make any sense given Buttle just proved you can win the World handily by being the number 2 in your own country or for that matter, Evan won the World as the #3 in the U.S. and won the Olympic as the #2 US skater. Just give up on that baseless argument, will you please? These skaters acheived what they have accomplished on their own merits, not because they have a powerful federation or a weak one, for that matter. Do you think the Czechs are considered powerful skating federation? And why would Brezina suddenly move from a nobody to 4th in the World all of sudden? Why would a powerful federation like Russia failed to even qualify 2 spots for next year given that Voronov used to be the Russian Champion prior to Plushenko's return and even placed Top 10 in the Worlds before?
    Well you have to actually be a good skater too. The Russians don't have a good male skater. And while Patrick may have won the Canadian national championsihp, he didn't have the same standing with the international judges that Jeff had-not by a longshot.

    And well Brezina is European, and its not like there are that many top European male skaters right now. Brezina was fourth at Europeans this year in a stacked field. He came very close to making the GPF this year (with tough GP spots too), and had a good showing at the Olympics. And it helps when you can jump like THAT. He's been establishing himself as an up and coming skater for awhile.
    Last edited by bekalc; 03-26-2010 at 01:24 AM.

  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Patrick Chan skated terribly and walked away with a 1 point off of his personal best. I'm lost for words.
    I know. It's just incredible. To give Patrick Chan 160 points for a program like that is ridiculous. When you don't even have a single quad in a program and then make mistakes on other jumps as well, you should not be placing that high. Chan should have finished 3rd.

    He is the most overmarked skater of the week - K&S in the pairs event are also up there as the other big beneficiaries of ridiculous judging this week.

  10. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibi24 View Post
    nice press conference, Daisuke had a great translator, and Brian was playful towards him with 4F/Lz challenge haha
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1p_1lW4WBA
    Brian is not bitter this time around because the CHAMPION had a quad.

  11. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    While Patrick has very good edges and transitions/in between elements, he's not exactly the best skater in everything that the Canadians make him out to be. The things he does well would be very easy for the judges to ignore if he came from a less powerful federation. Look at how S/S have gotten treated this year. As soon as a team from a powerful federation came along that could come close to them and the Russians got better.
    And just which male skater do you feel is the best in everything, if such skater actually exists or existed? I can tell you with absolute certainty such skater doesn't exist or existed whether it's male or female. Is Yu-Na Kim the best in everything, nope, not even close. There have been female skaters who are either better jumper, spinner or quicker on their feet than Yu-Na Kim ever did. Jumps = Midori Ito. Spins = Lucinda Ruth Footwork, SS and Transitions = Yuka Sato. See, Kim is not even the all-time best in any of the category but that doesn't mean she is a bad skater or that she doesn't deserve what she has accomplished. What you have done is you asked the impossible and that demand that Chan meets such impossible standard whilel simultaneously inflated Kim as though she is perfect, which she isn't and nobody is anyway. The S/S example is quite untrue. Pang/Tong were competing last year and they haven't changed country as far as I am concerned, your whole argument almost sounds as though the nation of China was in hiding last year and only came out of hiding this year. Seriously, that's totally baseless. S/S's troubles stem from their inability to stay on their feet. They made tons of errors this year, whether it's bombing the LP in TEB or average of one fall per competition, if not more. Their mistakes were quite glaring this year whereas they were mostly clena last year. That's why they struggle, not because China suddenly emerged politically, that's totally BS - China has been a powerhouse in Pairs skating for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    And the Korean federation certainly has more power than lets say the German federation. Considering the HUGE amounts of revenue the tv rights bring. And the fact that the Koreans dominate short track skating.
    Sorry, this is again pure speculation on your part. German economy is at least 3~4 times the size of Korea and the German market is much larger and the EU's biggest economy. While the Koreans' enthusiasm about an elite athlete is trully impressive, Germany has always been a powerhouse when it comes to sports. They consistently rank among top 3 in both Winter and Summer Olympics in both medal counts and gold medals. The Germans invested a huge amount of federal money in their sports associations and Germany has a much longer history and infrastrcutre in palce as far as figure skating is concerned. As far as skating is concerned, short track and figure skating, while all governed by ISU - the two sports don't mix or else we could also claim the Netherlands is a powerful skating nation in figure skating on the basis of short track using your poorly constrcuted logic - but the fact is, Netherlands is absolutely nobody in figure skating, they didn't even send anyone to these World Championships and they have no ISU judges on their roster - they have absolutely nothing. Yet, in short track, Netherlands is absolutely powerhouse, on par with South Korea. If Yu-Na Kim were to retire tomorrow, Korea would soon forget about figure skating but if S/S were to retire, Germany will continue to produce figure skaters and the country won't be any more or less enthusiastic about this sport because of one person or team. Who do you think the ISU Figure Skating would care more in this case, an established country who has one of the largest membership of skaters in Europe or a country whose enthusiasm in figure skating is soley dependent on one individual? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I'm not saying Patrick doesn't do somethings incredibly well because he truly does. His edges and skating skills, and ability to do hard transitions in between jumps is to die for. But he's not the most wonderful artist on ice right now-he could like Kozuka work on reaching the audience more (for one thing) and more expression. While his blades are great, I don't think he's the best at really expressioning the music with his whole body (including face) like Daisuke/Lambiel. And Patrick's jumps aren't exactly the best of the men, and while he's a good spinner, I think Kozuka is better. I'm just tired of hearing from Canadians that Patrick is the beeesst at everything else. I'm sorry I just don't agree. And Patrick is done no favors when he's told this.
    That's your opinion and I won't try to argue with you since this is your personal viewpoint. Keep in mind though, many people don't share your viewpoint and clearly the judges disagreed so it is what is. But I also think it's unfair for you to insist that politics is the main reason why Patrick Chan is where he is simply because you disagreed with the results. You can disagree with the results but it's unfair for you to try to erase an athlete's accomplishment by claiming it's all due to his powerful federation without any evidence to back up your claim yet plenty of evidences indicating otherwise. Just think about it, how would you feel if someone insists that Yu-Na Kim got to where she is because of Korean money and then proceed to say she isn't the best in everything?

  12. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    In case you forgot, let me refresh your memory, Jeff Buttle actually won the 2008 Worlds as Canada's #2 man, not #1. Guess who was the Canadian Champion? You got it! The guy who has been bashed by you and a ton of people without good cause in this thread and who happened to be the youngest skater still among Top 10 at the Worlds this year. Your whole argument that if Chan had been #2 in Canada, he wouldn't have done as well just doesn't make any sense given Buttle just proved you can win the World handily by being the number 2 in your own country or for that matter, Evan won the World as the #3 in the U.S. and won the Olympic as the #2 US skater. Just give up on that baseless argument, will you please? These skaters acheived what they have accomplished on their own merits, not because they have a powerful federation or a weak one, for that matter. Do you think the Czechs are considered powerful skating federation? And why would Brezina suddenly move from a nobody to 4th in the World all of sudden? Why would a powerful federation like Russia failed to even qualify 2 spots for next year given that Voronov used to be the Russian Champion prior to Plushenko's return and even placed Top 10 in the Worlds before?
    First of all, what do you want from these posters? You want them to just say "OH...we were totally wrong! Patrick Chan is an amazing skater and he is the next coming of Christ as far as figure skating is concerned!" People have brought up valid crticism after criticism against this guy and you just take them as them "bashing him." There was only one poster that actually said some out of line comments, I think everyone else have spent a lot of good time outlining their opinion. And likewise they took the time to read your posts (which I appreciated, by the way).

    And politicking in skating has existed as long as the dinosaurs. Phil Hersh had a story (I can't find it; will link as soon as possible) about how Frank Carroll was actually upset at U.S. Nationals when --god forbid-- that the judges gave Evan 7's in his PCS scores for his SP. Carroll was quoted as saying that other federations were giving their skaters high scores to send a message to the Olympic judges. It was clear it was in direct reference to Patrick Chan's 90 SP at Canadian Nationals, which was being held at the same time.

    Politicking doesn't always work, of course, if the skater federations politick for do not so great. But to say it totally doesn't exist is a bit naive.

    ETA: Carroll's comment was probably also in reference to Russia giving Plush 100+! in his SP at Russian Nationals.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-26-2010 at 01:34 AM.

  13. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Well you have to actually be a good skater too. The Russians don't have a good male skater. And while Patrick may have won the Canadian national championsihp, he didn't have the same standing with the international judges that Jeff had-not by a longshot.

    And well Brezina is European, and its not like there are that many top European male skaters right now. Brezina was fourth at Europeans this year in a stacked field. He came very close to making the GPF this year (with tough GP spots too), and had a good showing at the Olympics. And it helps when you can jump like THAT. He's been establishing himself as an up and coming skater for awhile.
    Voronov is pretty good skater, he even landed a clean Quad in Torino in both his SP and LP. You think he is not a good skater? I think he is very good skater. Too bad, Russia, arguably, the most powerful figure skating federation of all can't somehow political him to Top 10 as you suggest powerful federations can do.

  14. #704
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    One last thought:
    Look PChiddy is only 19. He's got time on his side. If the worse he gets is two silver medals and a bunch of critical posts on a message board, I think he (and his fans) can sleep well at night. It will be a good four years seeing who will rock the house and I have no doubt that PChiddy will figure out his triple axel thing and then become unbeatable. And if he get's the performance bug of Dice-K...then goodness!!!!!!!! that would be awesome.

    Enjoy reading the debate, folks.

  15. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Voronov is pretty good skater, he even landed a clean Quad in Torino in both his SP and LP. You think he is not a good skater? I think he is very good skater. Too bad, Russia, arguably, the most powerful figure skating federation of all can't somehow political him to Top 10 as you suggest powerful federations can do.
    Thank heavens for wallylutz and his well-informed responses! Honestly, I can't figure out why there is such vehement hatred of Patrick on this board! I guess people are entitled to their opinions, even when they are sometimes based on pretty flimsy premises. I'm Canadian and, sure, Patrick is well loved here, but isn't every athelete in their own country? I don't think that's so wrong. I want to learn more about skating and hear reasonable and informed viewpoints on skaters. But I'm so disappointed about the bashing, which just skews and confuses everything! I'm sure Patrick -- like everyone else -- has areas he can improve on. No one -- not even Canadians! -- will deny that. But just saying you hate him or that he should shut up or that anything he does is bad and undeserving or that he's somehow "chosen" and favoured by the entire world of judges -- that is not just convincing. Is there no room for constructive and civil criticism, for every skater? Anyhow -- I think I will abandon this board and read less hateful discussion elsewhere. But I will miss wallylutz's great analysis!

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